Finance committee  In the case you're speaking of, where there are large sums of money, we operate a system called the “large value transfer system”, which is available to our membership. They make that service available to consumers and businesses, and in many cases it's taken up by businesses. What it assures is same-day, real-time funds, and it cannot be revoked.

Finance committee  We do take care of the cheque clearing process as well, and in fact we're moving towards electronifying that. That's a huge initiative being undertaken today by the CPA and its member institutions. But there's really no direct parallel between the bill payment side, the electronic side, and the cheque clearing side.

Finance committee  With regard to the cheque, once it's made on deposit it needs to go through the cheque clearing system. That piece of paper needs to make its way back to the institution on which it's drawn to allow them to ensure that you do in fact have the money in your account and the cheque was signed by you.

Finance committee  That could take a couple of days. The current experience in Canada is that financial institutions generally provide consumers with provisional credit, so they put the funds into your account on the day it's deposited. It is therefore then proprietary whether or not they implement a hold on those funds.

Finance committee  That comes through us.

Finance committee  And it's all set up through the rules.

Finance committee  Actually, I'm not aware of how fraud could be perpetrated in a bill payment environment, because essentially the consumer is sent an invoice. I decide to go online to my bank site in order to make a payment.

Finance committee  You're paying it to a third party that has sent you an invoice. You're not paying it to yourself or to another fraudster. Maybe I could pass it to Barbara.

Finance committee  Well, we deal with risk of a different nature. It's really the risk between financial institutions. It's the financial institution that deals with the clients and the customer and biller risks. Now, our rules do establish liabilities between the financial institutions, and in many cases on how to return an item.

Finance committee  Right.

Finance committee  I can't tell you about those specific examples, but what I could suggest is that there are two ways this could happen. For the most part, they will come through us as a bill payment. But there are companies out there that have established financial arrangements with the majority of financial institutions.

Finance committee  No. The first one is; the latter, or the credit card, is not.

Finance committee  Yes.

Finance committee  Barb, do you...?

Finance committee  If it's going from a bank account to a biller, the biller must have a financial institution in order to receive that payment.