National Defence committee  That's correct, so quoting the inefficiencies, perhaps, of the military system, and how it is developed and built, and how efficient it could perhaps be.... Now, I'm not saying that we should encourage the surgeon general to create a factory of treating soldiers, but when psychiatrists have openly shared with me the notion that they just couldn't put their hand on their heart and feel good about making all that money to see three patients in a day and to spend half the day twiddling their thumbs when the lineup, the waiting list, was six months long....

National Defence committee  The only motivation that I've always had in doing what I managed to do in the last 12 years of my career was the motivation to think that if it's bad for me, imagine what it's like for the privates and corporals. That was my motivation for everything I ever tried to do or achieve, and yet again, when I was released 13 years after starting to work on all these systemic problems, the very issues that were present 12 years ago, such as the lack of transition services between DND advising Veterans Affairs that Grenier is taking these pills and please make sure that the coverage is right and I went to the pharmacy and all of a sudden I had to pay out of my pocket.

National Defence committee  It was very subtle. That's right, and I'm a lucky one.

National Defence committee  I would say that in the end, it affected my career trajectory, but I can honestly say that for me, but I am an exception, it did not negatively impact my career in the sense that I was not promoted or I didn't get the good posting. I did not notice any of that. What happened, however, is all the unwritten stuff.

National Defence committee  Yes. I was in a role where I was managing the operational stress injury social support program. I was an internal advocate for policy change. As I said earlier, this occupational transfer policy was very important to retain our people in the company. Of course, depending on who is the ADM, some will be happy with this kind of thinking and some won't, and those who aren't will probably, unbeknownst to themselves, be impacted by the notion that “Well, no wonder Grenier is such an avid advocate, he's half crazy.”

National Defence committee  I will say that I believe it's better in the military than it would be outside the military, and that's a good thing, because we have an institutional obligation and a moral obligation to develop expertise at that level. That is why, when I was advocating for more clinics and more treatment programs, for in-patient programs, some people were saying, “Well, you don't understand, Grenier, what we need to do is just refer them to the civilian health care system.”

National Defence committee  Very subtle.

National Defence committee  That's certainly true.

National Defence committee  Regarding your first question, I think that, if you have not yet invited Dr. Marc Zamorski, you should ask him to appear before your committee. He could provide you with a very comprehensive answer to the question of how Canada stacks up against its allies. I want to point out very candidly that he shared with me in 2009 certain studies indicating that, compared with the United States, England, New Zealand and Australia, Canada was a leader in “destigmatization”.

National Defence committee  I would like to provide a bit of background. Over the program's first three years, we assessed the mental health of our employees on a voluntary basis to determine whether it was deteriorating, improving or remaining stable. We noted no deterioration, despite some minor snags here and there.

National Defence committee  The question is very complex. I am not a scientist or an epidemiologist. So I am speaking from experience, but there is also some supporting evidence out there. Today, neuroscience is starting to provide fairly rigorous evidence that change is possible. It has been known for some time that there is some plasticity to the brain.

National Defence committee  Yes. I don't know what the numbers are today, but when I left the Department of National Defence, there were about 20 coordinators in charge of family support, and most of them were wives. There was no segregation—in other words, they were not all women—but unfortunately, or fortunately, I think most of them were.

National Defence committee  To my knowledge, there is no such program. I was unable to develop something like that, and I don't think my successors have done it either. That's very complex. There have been some small initiatives where peers, on a family level, established connections with social workers and psychologists locally.

National Defence committee  You just described about 70% to 75% of the cases involving individuals who use the peer support program. That's sort of a typical case. It's exactly as you described it. I have been working with the commission as a civilian for three years. It's really important to understand that a peer support program does not replace clinical care—as you probably implied with your question.

National Defence committee  The program has been in place for 13 years. It used to be supervised by professionals more than it is today. In the program's first six years, we had a multidisciplinary team—made up of mental health nurses, social workers, psychologists and even a psychiatrist—on my advisory committee.