Finance committee  Yes. I understand than an MP wants to provide a constituent with an avenue that might work for them. They don't qualify for the wage subsidy, so the MP says to apply for the CEBA loan. The business owner then spends a week trying to sort through all the details of the CEBA loan program only to discover that they're also not eligible for that.

Finance committee  Is that directed at me, Mr. Kelly?

Finance committee  Okay. Yes, we in fact did sign a letter with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, the business council, the aboriginal business association of Canada and 60 others. Bob, I think you're on that letter too. Most business associations in the country signed a letter urging the federal government and provincial governments to lay out the road map.

Finance committee  Yes, this has been a giant issue right from the very start of the pandemic. I will say I do believe that most members of government, most ministers, are quite sympathetic to this. All of them have said to me many times that they're working on it; they're thinking about it; and they need a solution here.

Finance committee  I certainly agree with that sentiment. As I said in my presentation, the average small firm has inherited $170,000 in COVID-related debt. We at CFIB are projecting 180,000 permanent business closures as a result of the pandemic, and that data was collected prior to the third wave, so I suspect both are far worse than that.

Finance committee  It is a very good program, largely designed on some previous programs that have existed in the past to try to get small businesses hiring again. Look, we predict at the CFIB that as the economy eventually reopens—Ontario is not making that easy—businesses will need to start to hire back some of their workers, but they won't have the money to do it.

Finance committee  Yes. I've been telling new business owners who have been contacting me in huge numbers to just stick with it, that the government is serious about this. The Prime Minister himself promised to do something for new business owners back in May of last year. A full calendar year later, during a worldwide pandemic, the government has not moved on this measure.

Finance committee  My apologies for not being better prepared, Chair.

Finance committee  Just moments ago Ontario announced another two weeks of lockdown on top of another two weeks on top of another two weeks, so I was just blasting the Ford government seconds ago. Let me switch gears to the federal budget. There is a lot in the budget that we commend and endorse and some pretty serious gaps that I want to highlight.

Finance committee  The same finance officials who hate this idea now hated this idea then and advised government not to go down this road. The Tories at least reviewed the legislation—to their credit—but didn't pass it when the Liberal MP Emmanuel Dubourg proposed this years ago. I'll remind you that Emmanuel, prior to becoming a parliamentarian, was a CRA auditor, so he knows what he is talking about.

Finance committee  Thank you for those questions. I agree with you that there are better spots for us to pursue additional government revenue if that were the objective here. The lens with which we would encourage you to look at it, first and foremost, is to do what's fair. If groups like mine were coming to you and saying, “Okay, let's put an advantage in place to sell to an international company or to an arm's-length party”, I think you would rightly laugh us out of the room.

Finance committee  I don't have data on the exact cost of this particular bill, but what I can tell you, just to echo the concerns that were shared earlier about the estimates the department put forward, is that some of the assumptions they made seemed crazy. They made assumptions that this would be used by virtually everyone.

Finance committee  I don't know that we've asked that specific nuance to the question, but in the deck I shared with the clerk, which I believe was sent to you, on how business owners intend to exit their business.... It's on page 5 of the deck if you have it. The top answer in terms of to whom they might leave their business is that 48% of businesses say they plan to sell to buyers unrelated to their family; 25% say they plan to sell to employees, which is another topic for another day at finance committee; 25% of businesses say they are looking to sell to family members; 21% to transfer to family members through an inheritance; and 15% wind down.

Finance committee  We have been talking for a long time about the tsunami of business transfers that is expected. I suppose the positive news is that a lot of business owners get to the age of normal retirement and then look at the business, look at the contributions they are making to society by keeping the business going, and then delay their retirement, either because they love doing what they're doing or because they feel they need to ensure that the business stays in that local community because of its contributions.

Finance committee  I am just coming in behind that. Thank you so much for the question. I agree with your sentiment entirely. In 2017, CFIB got involved in a little dust-up with the federal government over some small business tax changes that were being proposed. We had a tiny argument with the previous finance minister about that very issue.