Public Accounts committee  Unfortunately, I can't comment on that. It's not my area of expertise. I can tell you, based on the findings of the Auditor General, there was a clear lack of respect of the financial framework that's in place.

Public Accounts committee  No.

Public Accounts committee  No, not to my knowledge. Now, that's not to say it doesn't exist. Basic due diligence could easily pick this up. As a public servant, you have a code of conduct. There are certain things you're not supposed to do. We have rules and controls in place to prevent this from happening.

Public Accounts committee  Ministerial responsibility is important. Even at the deputy levels, the buck stops department by department. We need someone who's accountable, but for organizations such as PSPC, ESDC and DND, we're talking about hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. This is very difficult for one person.

Public Accounts committee  Second, we need to be involved in all stages of the process: the beginning, the middle and the end.

Public Accounts committee  When they don't have access to the tools, the authority, the documents and the information they need, it makes their job more difficult. When you go to the doctor, for example, they have to perform a health check to find out what your situation is. If you hide information from the doctor, their diagnosis may not be the best.

Public Accounts committee  That's a very broad question. Generally speaking, if we are consulted, which is not often, it's as an afterthought. It's not at the beginning of the process to ensure we're getting things right: Are we putting in place proper due diligence, proper accountability? We're trying to bring our members front and centre to ensure that we can avoid blunders like Phoenix by costing them out and asking, “Does this make sense?”

Public Accounts committee  It was during the development of the application.

Public Accounts committee  What I can tell you is that our members tried to do their job and were told there was no time for that. Again, internal controls were set aside because there was no time to perform them.

Public Accounts committee  Unfortunately, I can't speak to the nature of their involvement, as that would make it possible to identify them.

Public Accounts committee  That's correct.

Public Accounts committee  Off the top of my head, I would say there are about 50.

Public Accounts committee  The vast majority are. I don't know them all personally, but if one of my financial officers was not able to prepare a budget, I would be very disappointed and I would have a discussion with them.

Public Accounts committee  That's correct. It's not even a matter of accounting. My 16-year-old nephew is asking me how this can happen when he himself knows that there must be a documented record and internal controls. I can assure you that, if any of our members had been consulted on this, we could have done some basic things.

Public Accounts committee  I don't know the details, but based on my experience in a number of departments, in general, internal controls work. When they are set aside, the door is opened to malicious actors who can divert funds so that they end up in the wrong places. There are two reasons why there is a tendency not to consult our members.