National Defence committee  As indicated, we were briefed by the Privy Council that the NATO matter had been investigated by the NIS, by the department and by the Canadian Armed Forces. I relayed to the committee what we were briefed in March 2015, which was that there had been no reprimand, that there was no open investigation and that the general had been in a relationship with a subordinate who wasn't in the chain of command.

National Defence committee  Yes. As I indicated in my statement, I was briefed in March on the NATO deployment issue as I've described. In July, I was the one who received the rumour, which I relayed to the national security adviser for investigation, and I was briefed by the national security adviser on the anonymous email that had been received pertaining to the NATO matter.

National Defence committee  As I said earlier, the Prime Minister met with General Vance towards the end of March of 2015. In the course of that conversation, he asked him directly about the issue relating to his deployment at NATO and recounted the information that had been provided to us by officials about that matter, which was that he had been in a relationship with a subordinate not in the chain of command, and we were not aware there had been any reprimand against him.

National Defence committee  There would have been memos related to the ad hoc committee process from the Privy Council during the course of February and March 2015. As I stated, I don't have access to those records at this time.

National Defence committee  Essentially the same members of the ad hoc committee were aware of the two pieces of information that came forward in early July: the anonymous email that was received by someone at the department and the rumour that was relayed to me, which I reported to the national security adviser.

National Defence committee  As I mentioned in my statement, in the process leading up to the appointment in April, the ad hoc committee's work had yielded this matter of the general's time at NATO. We were briefed again by our officials on the fact that the general had been in a relationship with a subordinate officer not in the chain of command, that there was no open investigation into the matter, that there had been no reprimand of the general, and that, by this time in 2015 when we were learning about this, he was engaged to the other officer.

National Defence committee  As I said in my statement, let's be very clear on what was known at the time. In March 2015, we were briefed on this matter of how the general came to meet his then fiancée while on a NATO deployment. We were told that she was subordinate and not in the chain of command.

National Defence committee  I'll come to Gagetown.

National Defence committee  I just want to ensure that we're not adding allegations that we were not aware of at the time. That's what we were aware of in March, the issue relating to NATO. In early July, before the change of command ceremony, the issue of the rumour was raised with me and I reported it to the national security adviser at that time.

National Defence committee  All I can say to the member is what I said in my statement, that I relayed the rumour to the national security adviser. The national security adviser, sometime later, reported back that he had done two things. He had investigated that with the department, with the Canadian Armed Forces, and had found nothing, and he had spoken to General Vance about it directly, who denied it.

National Defence committee  I would concur with the member. I don't think it's normal or appropriate, particularly given the context, particularly given the issues that we're all aware of. Clearly, structural and cultural change is badly needed in the Canadian Armed Forces, and clearly it's not acceptable that information, whether in the form of rumours or allegations, not be pursued immediately to the full extent, so that if change needs to be made, it is made promptly.

National Defence committee  I'm afraid I can't explain why the minister would take that position. I've indicated that when I was in a position in which rumours were shared with me, I immediately relayed them to the most senior officials in the government and requested an investigation. I can't explain the actions of others.

National Defence committee  I'm not a lawyer. What I would say and what I have said is that political staff and ministers clearly aren't investigative entities in our system of government. However, I believe they have a responsibility to relay information they may come across to the appropriate senior officials and ensure that the information is investigated and that appropriate measures are taken, if necessary.

National Defence committee  I'm certainly not going to speculate on how or why the Minister of National Defence acted as he did. He can speak for himself. I know he's been before the committee on a number of occasions. All I can say is that when serious information—a rumour—was relayed to me in 2015, my reaction was to pass the information to the most senior officials in the Privy Council and request an immediate investigation so that action could be taken, if that investigation yielded any facts or information we were unaware of.

National Defence committee  What I can share with the member is what officials in the Privy Council briefed us on, which was that while the general was deployed on the NATO mission, he was in a relationship with an officer who was subordinate to him but not in the chain of command. The review of that matter had not yielded any reprimand of the general and the investigation was closed.