Justice committee  Thank you, Chair, and members of the committee. It's an honour to be asked to come back. And I understand that you have limited time, so my opening remarks will be brief. I want to recognize Graeme Hamilton, who is sitting behind me. He's a young lawyer from Toronto who was very helpful to us in preparing our submissions today.

Justice committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members of the committee, it's always an honour to come here. I must tell you that I feel particularly honoured to be with Mr. Henry today. This is what he speaks to, as a role model, and what's needed in these communities is a role model. I would almost want to capture him and take him with you on all your future meetings.

Justice committee  And yet when I read some of the testimony previously, and as I've appeared here over the years, the statistics are only as good as the information and the statisticians. So we're never going to solve this problem unless we're all on the same song sheet regarding the questions we want to find out.

Justice committee  Mr. Murphy, can I just say very quickly one thing about--

Justice committee  It's reliability of the information. If you tell me something, then I can go and say that I believe because you told me, as I have first-hand knowledge. If you're telling me something as a result of a meeting that occurred with you and some other people, that is a little less reliable, because it may be based on third-party information, etc.

Justice committee  It may in certain circumstances.

Justice committee  I hope that when you are dealing with Bill C-4 and other proposed legislation that deals with youth justice, you take up a suggestion that I made some time ago that you hear from judges in camera who deal with these issues, because they're the best ones who can tell you about what they're dealing with, in front of you.

Justice committee  Much more comfortable.

Justice committee  As long as the judge makes the decision, I can live with it.

Justice committee  Not in detail.

Justice committee  In relation to proceeds that are properly seized by the court, with all the balances that need to be put in place, I think that's probably a wise use for them--put them back into the community and make it known. No question about it. It should be something we promote. And that might be something you want to address.

Justice committee  Yes, I'm sure. And that is being proposed from the national symposium, which has really got off the ground by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. Let me just say one other thing that we haven't talked about but is really important. The public sometimes gets frustrated, not so much by what seems to be the result but by not understanding the system.

Justice committee  Can I just respond too, Mr. Comartin? I was thinking about this. If we take the police, we ask them to respond to two levels of what we'll call organized crime: the bikers and the community. In one area the police would be trying to infiltrate, and in the other, the community, they would be trying to engage.

Justice committee  Can I say, Mr. Comartin, that this is a difficult area because we're into labelling. One group gets together in a community to reflect cultural differences, as opposed to another group, having no father figure, who get together to have a sense of identity. Oftentimes at bail hearings for some of these young people, there's never a man who comes forward as a surety; it's the mother.

Justice committee  We actually proposed something like that at a previous hearing. I think there's no question about it. That gives a balance, sends the message out, but it allows a judge to exercise his or her discretion and explain why in the particular circumstances of that case, of that person, of that group, the minimum sentence that otherwise would have been applied is not going to be applied.