Justice committee  Mr. Ménard, on behalf of the CCCDL, as you know, we have representatives across the country and in the north. It's early to measure the impact of new legislation demanding mandatory minimums. We've decided that we will try to gather information to see what the impact will be and to see whether or not the negative aspects outweigh the positive aspects.

Justice committee  I'm out of time.

Justice committee  First let me respond generally to a concern you've heard time and time again, and that is resources. There is no question about it that one of the things the committee has to be concerned about is the demand for resources so that the police in this country can try to keep up or be one step ahead, especially as we move into areas of identity theft and the use of the Internet, which is a new era for us, a new time.

Justice committee  Thank you very much, Chair and members of the committee. I appreciate being invited back on behalf of the Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers, and I welcome you to Toronto for a change. I want to talk today about a central theme in confronting criminal organizations, changing legislation, and how the criminal justice system deals with these issues, as opposed to specific comments in relation to some of the issues.

Justice committee  First of all, that's not what I said. I said that my concern about the bill is that it interferes with judicial discretion, and I cited Mr. Justice Rutherford in the Khawaja decision. That's my concern. Second, I don't understand what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting that the situation in the federal penitentiaries is so bad that we should ignore it?

Justice committee  Well, I guess the answer is yes--

Justice committee  Okay. The remand centres are warehouses. People are four, five, and six in cells for a lot less.... This is not anecdotal. The evidence is there. The remand centres are a disgrace in this country.

Justice committee  Sir, could I just say something very quickly? I apologize. I just want to raise with Mr. Murphy about the Canadian Bar Association that the--

Justice committee  Thank you.

Justice committee  I'm hoping you'll ask them. I think a judge's job is going to become very much more difficult. How do they balance everything they see in front of them? And I think it adds a tremendous strain on the judges who have to make the final decision.

Justice committee  I think there will be charter challenges, absolutely. Secondly, if I were a judge--and it would never happen--I would certainly take it into my hands to try to figure out what was fair and balanced, taking into consideration the protection of the public and the need for security, and the principles of sentencing.

Justice committee  Mr. Murphy, could I just respond to the more general question? We cannot ignore the conditions in our remand centres. We're not even talking about the penitentiaries. The international human rights code states that presumed-innocent individuals incarcerated by the state, awaiting trial, must be incarcerated in conditions that are above the standards of the regular prisons.

Justice committee  Thank you very much, members of the committee. I've been asked to go next. It's an honour, again, to appear before you. I'll keep my comments brief. I'm going to ask you to bear with me for one second about what I believe runs as an undercurrent in this legislation and some of the previous legislation, and that is the role of judicial discretion.

Justice committee  It certainly is.

Justice committee  I would think that as we progress, if this bill is passed, we're going to find out something about this. Quite frankly, there is some planning involved in most scenarios where a murder has taken place by people involved in criminal activity through organizations. My position is that you're talking about making it difficult for jurors to understand planning and deliberation.