Justice committee  No, I don't agree. There has to be some planning and some deliberation for first-degree murder. I find it very difficult to imagine situations where persons involved in criminal organizations or gang activity who carry out a murder wouldn't be charged with first-degree murder, unless it was accidental.

Justice committee  It's up to you to decide whether or not there's a need for this legislation. I'm suggesting that if there was a need for this legislation we would probably see a number of charges in this area. I would respectfully submit to you that we're not going to see it, because I believe the Criminal Code covers the situations that we've been talking about.

Justice committee  I think it's fair to say that a strict level of proof has to be established beyond a reasonable doubt that the murder is planned and deliberate. I don't think the jurors in this country have a great deal of difficulty understanding that concept. As a matter of fact, I think we're moving to standard jury charges throughout the country that judges would give in relation to these.

Justice committee  The one I'm referring to is Bonner and Lindsay. It's an organized crime prosecution. The decision of Madam Justice Fuerst is a thorough decision on organized crime and the definition in the Criminal Code. It's under appeal, but it's helpful reading.

Justice committee  It's a case called Bonner and Lindsay.

Justice committee  I think when you get a serious offence where there is a reverse onus provision, the reverse onus provision isn't necessary. There are still the three standard grounds: primary, secondary, and then the third ground, which is the protection of the public interest. Quite frankly, the reverse onus provision in most cases is not necessary to implement, in my respectful opinion, in terms of the experience.

Justice committee  I think you've heard from my colleagues testifying today that there's no reluctance throughout the country to prosecute. I think there are major prosecutions involving organized crime and guns and gangs throughout the country. Where the investigative tools and the infrastructure are there in terms of crown attorneys working with the police, crown attorneys from the provincial organizations working together with federal prosecutors to prosecute drugs too, the prosecutions are happening.

Justice committee  A short answer? Okay. When you add an element to an offence already existing in the Criminal Code, that element has to be proved. It doesn't lend to efficiency if it's not necessary. Use the first-degree murder example. If you are going to allege that a first-degree murder becomes a first-degree murder because the murder is done in association with or to the benefit of a criminal organization, you have to start by proving the criminal organization, proving the benefit, proving the involvement, as opposed to simply proving planning and deliberation, or a conspiracy or group.

Justice committee  Could I just respond to that? Quite frankly--

Justice committee  Thank you.

Justice committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I apologize for being late. There was a decision being made in Toronto about whether or not the plane was going to take off. It was late. I went up and said, “If I don't go, do I get two for one for my ticket?” They said, “No.”

Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Statistics—the word I would rather use is evidence—that it is a problem. One of the ways you find out is that there are statistics showing hat bail provisions as currently structured are being abused. I'm not sure what Mr. Lomer's position was. I represent the national council, and we have viewpoints from right across the country, as opposed to Toronto, a big city.

Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  I don't think Mr. Dykstra meant anything negative. He wanted some clarification. I don't remember the context, but I can tell you that I defend police officers and we consult with police officers. I just was representing a person charged with the first degree murder of a police officer and had all kinds of nice things said about the way it was handled.

Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  I think the two additions to the confidence in the public administration of justice cover the concerns without shifting the onus. In other words, if you say that the firearm was a part of the offence, and that gets added to the section that the public would lose confidence in the administration of justice, and of course that there's a minimum sentence for a firearm offence, you've covered off, in my respectful submission, what all parties want to do here, to address the level of confidence and fear, real or imagined.

Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  I think it's a problem, and I hope I can answer it. What's going to come into the system? Who's going to lay the charges? It may very well be that by those examples certain people are going to be caught up into this web who it is not the intention of any of you to address, because obviously the police are the ones who make the decision on the charges.