Environment committee  In fact, I didn't get a chance to answer your question from before, which is that one way of designing a system is to have an upstream cap and trade system, which of course involves regulations for large final emitters, have a downstream carbon tax that is felt by the consumer, and have regulations for things I've mentioned already that aren't really well captured by a carbon price.

Environment committee  Chairman. Let me ask you about this question of what we've just been hearing about in terms of a carbon tax, which of course is different from a carbon budget or cap and trade system, although my colleagues in the Conservative Party don't seem to be able to grasp those differences, I gather, from what they're saying.

Environment committee  That's a very different answer than the question of a carbon tax. You're not addressing the question. I mean, I accept what you're saying, that in fact there's no question, or the idea that having strong regulations on manufacturers of vehicles and so forth and limiting emissions that way is important.

Environment committee  William Nordhaus, who is a very well-respected Yale University economist, has calculated that an economically optimal carbon price or tax would be about $27 U.S. per metric tonne in 2005, rising to $90 U.S. in 2050. So we're talking carbon tax one way or the other of anywhere from $30 to $90 a tonne, according to some economic analysis. I don't know how the numbers shake out in Canada, but that seems like a reasonable level that starts to get some action.

Environment committee  Up until the opposition to a carbon tax it sounded like you had a vision.

Environment committee  That's the approach that we would advocate, that you set the targets, you put in place a carbon price, whether it's a carbon tax or a cap and trade system--actually, there are hybrids that probably would work best--but at the end of the day, I don't see any reason why it should be the public that picks up the tab for oil and gas companies taking responsibility for the pollution they produce.

Environment committee  The research that was done was used by the current government and by the previous Liberal government. The modelling used fixes a carbon price. It does not call for setting a carbon tax, ceiling or exchange system, but for rolling everything into a shadow price. The model verifies changes to energy use patterns. Only by setting a carbon price will we be able to achieve the 80% or better target by 2020.

Industry committee  There are a couple of things, Mr. Brison. There is, of course, the issue of what's being called a carbon tax and the impact that might have. I've talked already about the margins and perhaps the inability of our industry to pass additional taxes and charges along to our customers in this era.

Industry committee  There has been an emergence over the last year in particular--with the Canadian Council of Chief Executive Officers, the council of sustainable environment, the World Economic Forum, and others--of a growing global consensus that there's going to be a price put on carbon through cap and trade, through carbon taxes in some cases, and in other cases through carbon tariffs. There are even discussions now that France and California are moving toward a carbon tariff regime so that imported goods will be hit with a carbon tariff.

Industry committee  First, when considering policies with respect to the environment and whatever measures the government policy-makers take with respect to the environment, be they emissions trading or carbon taxes, you have to take a look at the fact that transportation is a derived demand. So as to your question about what would be the impact on our industry, it's not so much about what would be the impact on our industry but what would be the impact on the Canadian economy from the perspective of us being an input into the process of trade, of people travelling, of tourism, and the other sectors.

Industry committee  I think it would be, if I might use the term, more palatable to the industry if it felt that 4¢ was doing something worthwhile. As we move into an era of discussion of carbon taxes and those sorts of things--environmental charges and the like--perhaps that 4¢ might be used for those sorts of things, as opposed to general revenue.

Environment committee  In fact, one of the things they talked about was an environmental tax, which is a euphemism, of course, for a carbon tax. At Bali, too, 100 of the world's biggest companies called on governments to take action. I think business is looking for the rules of the game to be made. I'm hoping we'll let bygones be bygones and move on.

Environment committee  I'm not an economist. I have read a lot, but I'm loath to give testimony on a carbon tax level required to meet the bill because that would be out of my area of expertise, although I'm quite familiar with the method and tools available to the government.

Environment committee  And I support the carbon tax wholeheartedly.

Environment committee  But we have to either determine to get there or we have to implement policy measures that force us to get there, such as those the national round table recommends—things such as a carbon tax, which will simply make the production of energy-using fossil fuels too darned expensive. People will naturally find cheaper ways of doing it, and hence emissions from fossil fuel burning will decline.