Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Chair, this government has made it very clear that we have two choices, two directions in which we can head to clean up the environment, to reduce greenhouse gas emissions—that is, to slow down the economy; or through technology created right here in Canada, we can reduce greenhouse gas emissions, through technologies like carbon capture and storage. What was being proposed previously by the Liberal Party was carbon taxing, and as I started to say, there was praise from the Liberals to provide a new $100-billion carbon tax on Canadians and industry. Also, their proposal was to have billions of dollars leave Canada to buy carbon credits, hot air credits.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Now what's being proposed here is the introduction of one of the largest corporate tax increases in recent history with no expectation of achieving any reductions in greenhouse gases. The Liberals' proposal of an uncapped investment account is nothing more than a carbon tax. They would like to disguise that carbon tax within the hidden language, but in fact it is a tax. With no cap, companies can buy their way out of achieving real reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  About a year ago, the then opposition critic for the environment, who is now the chair of the environment committee, said we could not include greenhouse gases under CEPA and regulate them, because that would amount to a carbon tax, and now the government is proposing to use CEPA to regulate greenhouse gases in some obtuse manner. This proposal is not for a carbon tax. I think we have to be clear about that. It is more akin to an eco-RRSP for large final emitters in this country.

Prebudget Consultations  Yes, he wants a new carbon tax to really hammer businesses that have already been hit by the recession in the United States. I would love to answer legitimate questions from the Liberal Party but, clearly, as I said, one does not throw rocks when one lives in a glass house.

Environment committee  For example, we have said that should governments, or the Government of Canada, or Canada eventually move to some form of carbon tax, it would have to be neutral. What do we mean by that? What we mean is that certain sectors will be hit harder than others. It will mean that the price of carbon will add to the costs of running a business, and therefore we must intelligently revisit the tax system to ensure that there is, at the very least, a neutrality.

Environment committee  I wish they had actually performed the analysis to substantiate a cap and trade versus a carbon tax, or environmental tax, as Mr. d'Aquino puts it, and the merits of one over the other. Is the government's plan going to price carbon, and do you think it's going to price carbon at a sufficient price?

Environment committee  At present, they are under no obligation whatsoever to reduce their emission levels. You stated that if we were to bring in a carbon tax, China would have to do likewise, to balance the equation. However, if China refuses to do so, what then?

Environment committee  They have a carbon tax.

Environment committee  They have a carbon tax and a trading system--

Environment committee  They have a carbon tax that affects their oil and gas industry, which is why the oil and gas industry actually uses CCS, because once you apply a large enough tax, it becomes commercially effective.

Environment committee  In China, a plant that produces the same ton of aluminum emits seven tons of CO2. You propose a carbon tax. If we apply a tax of $30 per ton, that would mean $30 times four. You didn't have time to get into this, but the figure could be slightly higher. Add to that the cost per ton of Canadian aluminum, namely $120.

Environment committee  In fact, I didn't get a chance to answer your question from before, which is that one way of designing a system is to have an upstream cap and trade system, which of course involves regulations for large final emitters, have a downstream carbon tax that is felt by the consumer, and have regulations for things I've mentioned already that aren't really well captured by a carbon price.

Environment committee  Chairman. Let me ask you about this question of what we've just been hearing about in terms of a carbon tax, which of course is different from a carbon budget or cap and trade system, although my colleagues in the Conservative Party don't seem to be able to grasp those differences, I gather, from what they're saying.

Environment committee  That's a very different answer than the question of a carbon tax. You're not addressing the question. I mean, I accept what you're saying, that in fact there's no question, or the idea that having strong regulations on manufacturers of vehicles and so forth and limiting emissions that way is important.

Environment committee  William Nordhaus, who is a very well-respected Yale University economist, has calculated that an economically optimal carbon price or tax would be about $27 U.S. per metric tonne in 2005, rising to $90 U.S. in 2050. So we're talking carbon tax one way or the other of anywhere from $30 to $90 a tonne, according to some economic analysis. I don't know how the numbers shake out in Canada, but that seems like a reasonable level that starts to get some action.