International Trade committee  I generally agree with my friend from CUPW. I wanted to address one other issue, which is that the trade union movement in Colombia is firmly opposed to this agreement. I know that this committee has heard mixed evidence on this issue. I was in Colombia again last year, and I met with the leaders of the three primary labour centrals.

International Trade committee  That's not my information. Again, that's not the information of the Colombian labour school, with all due respect.

International Trade committee  Only if there's some evidence that those labour rights provisions are actually going to provide substantive protections to workers. Again, in my view, there isn't such evidence. I'd like to talk to you at greater length about extractive industries in Colombia, but I'm not sure now is the time.

International Trade committee  I have my issues and disagreements with the ILO, but if I can comment on the specific proposition you're making, there is no question that in some sectors of Colombian society there has been a diminution of violence. I don't dispute that. I know the Colombian government makes that claim, and that is correct.

International Trade committee  Well, let me say yes: that is to say, the labour side agreement with Colombia is essentially the same, with minor variations, as the labour side agreement that we have negotiated and ratified with Peru. So in a sense, they are virtually identical. As I indicated in my testimony, they do represent progress over what was negotiated as a labour side agreement to NAFTA.

International Trade committee  Well, insofar as I'm not sure I'm.... It's unclear to me exactly the extent of Mr. Brison's proposal, but from what I've seen so far, it has no credibility, and I would have no confidence.... I was in Colombia for some time last year. I met with a large number of government officials, including the president and the defence minister.

International Trade committee  I already described it as window dressing in my submissions, and I won't repeat myself. I think you need to look at what is enforceable. Are there any benchmarks built into what Mr. Brison is proposing? What are the consequences in the event it should emerge that human rights are not being respected in Colombia?

International Trade committee  I have two quick observations. It would absolutely be possible to negotiate a trade agreement with real, enforceable labour rights and real sanctions. For example, the United States has been looking at negotiating trade agreements with actual human rights benchmarks incorporated into the text of the agreements.

International Trade committee  Correct. We--

International Trade committee  Again, we have no position on trade agreements—

International Trade committee  I've already been sanctioned for being overly long. My view is that you need a wide variety of different penalties. Monetary fines are one avenue--

International Trade committee  I can't tell you what is enough.

International Trade committee  My view is that at a minimum you need a provision that would provide for the abrogation of the trade agreement if in fact it turned out that Colombia was not complying with its obligations. That would be my view of an appropriate remedy--

International Trade committee  The Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers has absolutely no position on trade agreements.

International Trade committee  Our position relates specifically to the labour provisions in trade agreements.