Industry committee  I have one observation on this. We're talking about why CAMR is not working. Mr. Kay has come up with an example, where a country that appears to have a substantial need for a product is not even willing to identify itself to avail itself of a low-cost generic. I think it highlights a broader problem, which is the true desire of these countries to deal with HIV.

Industry committee  No, I think that's critical.

Industry committee  I think there will be abuses. A lot of the activist and NGO communities have made it very clear that they do not want to see patents enforced outside of the western world. They will do everything they can to see those patents pushed aside. I think this could be a situation--I don't know the particulars--where there would be the opportunity for the R and D industry to go in and work out an appropriate arrangement with this government.

Industry committee  I would ask if we would have the opportunity to engage in discussions with that country to find out what the challenges are for that country to access our medicines to put their patients on the drugs, and have the opportunity to try to work out arrangements with that country directly.

Industry committee  We are doing it now.

Industry committee  I'm saying that prices and patents are not what is causing these patients to die.

Industry committee  I can't speak for what a particular minister of health may want to be doing in a particular country. To start off, I'd say $10 million would not be nearly enough to deal with the issues, but assuming that they had resources to develop health care, they're going to prioritize their health care and they're going to determine how much they want to prioritize to HIV and to the other diseases they're dealing with, whether it be tuberculosis, malaria, dysentery, whatever it may be.

Industry committee  One thing we need to understand is that a lot of times these governments actually do not want a compulsory licence. They would rather work things out. The NGO community has had a very vocal public campaign to break intellectual property rights throughout the world. They want to do that.

Industry committee  To answer your question directly, the answer from us is yes, we would make it in Canada and we'd provide it at cost. In the least developed countries you have the other pricing providing the materials for middle income markets. I'd also just point out that to my knowledge there's not one HIV product that is in need in the developing world that cannot be manufactured in India.

Industry committee  I have offered a couple of suggestions, which you identified before, so I won't repeat those. I would like people to look at the act as a safeguard to ensure that patents are being used responsibly, to ensure that the R and D industry is doing what it needs to do to make sure its products are affordable in the developing world.

Industry committee  I think I do understand the question. If you recall my testimony, I talked about countries making HIV care a priority. We talk a lot about what we believe is needed in Africa and what Africa should be doing with their health care systems. That may not necessarily be what they want to do.

Industry committee  Yes. If I could, I'll jump in. I think from our point of view at Gilead, our goal is actually for us to work directly with governments throughout the world--you call it voluntarily, but not in the TRIPS terms of a voluntary licence--and work out our arrangements. That is our goal, and that's what we try to do as a company: balance our intellectual property with the needs of patients and access to our products.

Industry committee  No, no. Affordability, even at our cost, which is as low as we can drive the cost down, is still great. I think a question came up about PEPFAR as another source of funding. More money is needed to purchase products, even if they're generics, even if they're coming through our access program in Africa.

Industry committee  I think it's a question for Canada, as far as the image is concerned. I do believe that substantially more resources need to come from developed nations like Canada, like the United States, like western Europe, to deal with HIV/AIDS in the least developed countries of the world.

Industry committee  The answer is yes, we're in constant dialogue with the Clinton Foundation. They recently put out an RFP for purchase of our product and a variety of other products, and we are putting in a bid on that as well as the Indian companies we work with.