Public Safety committee  I have not advocated for a moratorium on its use. I believe it has its place, but it has been used inappropriately at times, and that casts aspersions on the proper use. I would like to see it regulated, trained on, and enforced better.

Public Safety committee  Yes, I was aware of that fact, along with a number of other reports about it, both in support of and against it.

Public Safety committee  I would like to comment on that last question. We have a case that is currently under investigation. Again, it's a Vancouver Granville Street incident, which happened some months ago. The officers met a mentally ill person who came at one of the officers with what was perceived to be a weapon, and he was shot to death.

Public Safety committee  There are various organizations within the province of Ontario for oversight. One is for the Ontario Provincial Police, of course, but the other is the SIU model, where members of the Attorney General's ministry investigate complaints for serious bodily harm and death cases. That's done by a totally independent body.

Public Safety committee  The notoriety of the taser may also have an unexpected positive effect. When people see the taser come out, they may become compliant before it's necessary to deploy it. I don't think Mr. Kennedy and I are in disagreement about where this taser should be used. Part of it has to do with the definition of less than lethal force.

Public Safety committee  I think you would find that in the drug world there are probably products that were tested, presumed safe, and subsequently found not to be as safe as expected. You have experts again, usually through the drug industry, who are.... You asked me for an example, and the only thing that comes to mind is in the drug industry.

Public Safety committee  If I may respond to your first suggestion that my argument about the proximal time of death after deployment of the taser was fallacious, sir, I'm not a medical expert. This is not what I am saying; I am saying what is in the studies in the report. The doctors, the cardiologist, and these people have said in these reports that if there isn't death within minutes of electrical shock, any subsequent death is likely not attributable to the electric shock that was applied.

Public Safety committee  Not every police force, but its use is increasing and--

Public Safety committee  To be truthful, I can't tell you how many hours are devoted to it, but the Justice Institute of British Columbia trains new recruits, and also there are regular updates. It's an incremental training time, so I don't know how many hours are dedicated.

Public Safety committee  No, the Intertek and Exponent studies.

Public Safety committee  I can't think of one offhand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's very common that in a particular area the people who are the experts in the field are the ones who provide the studies and statistics. It's very difficult sometimes to get independent experts, because they've already been consulted by the manufacturer.

Public Safety committee  Thank you. They recommended more study, and they also indicated, as you have outlined, that there certainly are a lot of situations where people who exhibited the symptoms had the same symptoms when the taser was applied and there was a subsequent death. These people are dying in hospitals and elsewhere without application of the taser.

Public Safety committee  Well, with respect, sir, that's exactly what my agency is supposed to do for municipal forces. But whenever you have police investigating the police or police recommending to the police, public confidence is only there, as Honourable Member Priddy mentioned, if there is effective civilian oversight with sufficient authority to effect it.

Public Safety committee  Are you talking about the taser itself--the output, the amount of zap, as it were? We have been trying since our report--for over two years--to find an independent laboratory capable of doing that. We have been pushing almost on a monthly basis: “When are you going to do it?” The national police research council, I believe, just told us on Friday that within two weeks they will be in a position to actually do an independent test.

Public Safety committee  Well, I think the studies are all over the map. In terms of the results by trainers, for example, some of them say there are no problem. Some of them.... There have been people who have urinated, and some people have lost complete control. There are others who are concerned about the dangers after tasering, such as if it makes you drop to the floor, you're going to have subsequent injuries.