Public Safety committee  Our focus isn't so much on the issue of training. It's clearly the individual who already chooses their own lawyer, and in proceedings, individuals do have representation. As we all know, there's a group of lawyers in Canada who have developed considerable expertise and specialization in national security cases in an immigration context, so individuals concerned are probably most likely going to look to that group and emerging lawyers who continue to develop expertise.

Public Safety committee  Undoubtedly, there would be individual cases in which there would be a tussle between the individual's choice of counsel and the ability to get security cleared. There may even be instances in which security clearance ultimately is not possible, and the person concerned would then have to choose another counsel, again of their choice, but we would hope those instances would be limited.

Public Safety committee  The one concern that Amnesty International has highlighted is the fact that the special advocate himself or herself does not have the ability to launch a judicial review or an appeal. That is, of course, left in the hands of the individual and his or her own lawyer. But the special advocate, being the only one of that group who has access to the in camera proceedings, who knows the full extent of what is or is not going on and thus would have some very different perspectives and insights as to when a judicial review or an appeal may be necessary, does not have the power to launch the judicial review or appeal and can't even have a conversation with the individual or the individual's counsel to suggest that a judicial review or an appeal may be necessary for particular reasons.

Public Safety committee  No, certainly not. We would share concerns with respect to all of those points.

Public Safety committee  I guess some of the uncertainty arises because the immigration security process is not itself a criminal process. While you're quite right that those obligations around disclosure are clearly established in common law with respect to criminal proceedings, when things transfer into an immigration context—and this isn't the only principle where we see this play out—it is not uncommon that it becomes less clear, less certain, whether those conventions and common law principles will or will not be adhered to.

Public Safety committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is Alex Neve, and I'm the secretary general of Amnesty International Canada. It's a pleasure to be here today. We do certainly appreciate the fact that the committee has opened up this extra opportunity for hearings, making it possible for us to appear.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Absolutely. I think one of the things that is so exciting about this is that it is concrete. Of course, treaties--which are about promises, pledges, and aspirations, as so many human rights treaties are--are vitally important. They do set the legal standards that through other mechanisms and processes we then all work to hold governments to.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I think that's true. As I said earlier, I often find a sympathetic audience in speaking with ministers and senior officials around this. There is no disagreement at all that this is something worthwhile, but I have not yet seen that translate at those levels into a clear commitment that translates into the kind of direction and leadership that is needed within all governments to make it happen and make it happen quickly.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Again, I wish I could give you a clear and precise answer to that. Let me start with the question of Canada's reputation. I think that is something this committee should be concerned about. I wouldn't want to suggest at all that because we haven't ratified the optional protocol to the torture convention, we're suddenly now viewed within UN circles as a bad guy when it comes to human rights.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Certainly, obviously, the prevention of torture is an issue very close to the soul of Amnesty International, and any work this subcommittee is willing to do to more widely tackle that.... The work you're doing on the optional protocol is vitally important, but this is only one tool amongst a multitude of others that need to continue to be strengthened nationally.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Of course, toujours. With respect to your first question, it has been difficult for us to get clarity as to where difficulties or concerns may lie. We've certainly heard, as you have this morning, on a number of different occasions, an assurance that consultations are under way.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon, committee members. Despite being unconditionally banned in numerous international human rights treaties, national constitutions, and laws around the world, the ugly and very vicious reality of torture continues to be commonplace and to haunt every corner of the globe.

National Defence committee  Just to build on that, our concern has to be with respect to countries where their record—and the record, of course, comes from a variety of different sources, such as research from organizations like my own, UN sources, media reports, etc.—gives us reason to believe there's a contemporary risk of torture.

National Defence committee  If I can just add one other point on the death penalty, it's absolutely true that both the Canadian and Dutch agreements do make it clear that the death penalty should not be used. But in addition to the concern we have about this not being a legally binding treaty—thus, what is the weight of that guarantee?