Foreign Affairs committee  Very quickly, the policy has to be one of targeting, in the sense of what you have been doing, and if you feel you've had a good success in doing this or that, we should continue and see if we can increase it if they're willing. We find that in many respects they're willing in many fields, but not in everything.

Foreign Affairs committee  Well, as Canadians, we have been there with other countries--the U.S, Australia, Germany, and the U.K., to name a few. Strangely enough, we have been very active. Maybe it's because of the kind of relationship we've had with the Chinese over 25 years, and more that we've been invited to come and tell them how we do business and how we do things, and they're paying attention.

Foreign Affairs committee  From the perspective of a political reflection of what a state is all about and what kind of constitutional framework or legal type of system it has, you then can begin to figure out how it's used. In using it, perhaps democratic principles will be reflected and perhaps they will not, because the legal system, the rule of law, can be as oppressive as it can be reflective and forgiving.

Foreign Affairs committee  I thought it was addressed to you.

Foreign Affairs committee  I think it's a democracy, so the legal side precedes it.

Foreign Affairs committee  As it affects the individual citizen, you have to look at how the different organs of justice, as they're called in China, have been changing the way they do their jobs, as well as the form of professionalization that is taking place in the Supreme People's Court. Where 20 years ago, 10 years ago, very few people were legally trained, now almost all...not all, because there's grandfathering and grandmothering that has taken place in terms of the quality of the judges and prosecutors.

Foreign Affairs committee  Sure. I figured that was probably going to happen because there's too much stuff. That's why I gave you the brief.

Foreign Affairs committee  Let me conclude then with the issue of engagement. Based on the years of programming experience in China, there are five reasons we believe engagement with China on human rights issues works and should be continued. First, China is committed to transforming its legal-judicial system as part of its efforts to join the world community.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, members of the committee. As President of the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform, I thank you for inviting the international centre today to share with you our experience in China and to comment on human rights and their evolution in China in the 20th century.