Information & Ethics committee  What one hopes is that the commissioner makes a final and binding order that is abided by and there is no need to take it further. You want to have some finality, and right now with a recommendation you just don't have it.

Information & Ethics committee  Well, I think what we were referring to there was the idea of the five-year review, to be able to have a look at the entire act to see how it works. There are a number of options. For example, in light of technology, one could have a different manner of making requests, one could have a different manner of disclosure, one could have proactive disclosure as a feature of the legislation.

Information & Ethics committee  I don't know of any statute, really, that has that manner of penalty, whether they be fines or whatever. What's involved in recommendation 9 is just allowing departments to have a longer period of time when it's essential, other than the two grounds that exist right now. If the approval of the information for the extension beyond 60 days is required, if you didn't give that approval, then presumably they'd have—whatever—those few more days to actually process the request.

Information & Ethics committee  Well, I think the commissioner now has report cards for every department, and I think that's been effective. You heard from the minister, who's apparently done very well in his report card lately. I think there are a number of tools one can use. This particular one will put a timeframe, which is not currently in place, of 60 days in which you need approval, so that means you'd have to go to the commissioner and actually ask for approval beyond the 60 days.

Information & Ethics committee  I don't know. Did the commissioner mention how it works?

Information & Ethics committee  I'm not familiar with the--

Information & Ethics committee  Sir, I am not following.

Information & Ethics committee  There are many tribunals in Canada that have binding powers over the legislation that they manage, and the recourse to the court is the check and balance, if you will. But I think in this case it would solve a problem that is really existing under the act right now, because for administrative matters, even though the commissioner can investigate and can render a report, there is no recourse anywhere.

Information & Ethics committee  Typically, it's recourse to the court that is the result of binding order-making power on the part of a tribunal.

Information & Ethics committee  Typically under this legislation, you don't have that right now. At the same time, if we have a situation where—

Information & Ethics committee  But do you? I mean, they could use whatever name they want; they could also use their next-door neighbour. That goes back to a question—

Information & Ethics committee  When you look at this legislation, it's not so much why someone wants it, it's the question of looking at the record itself, on its face. Forgetting the name of the individual who might be requesting it, should that record be disclosed? And either our exemptions are robust enough to deal with issues like that, or they aren't.

Information & Ethics committee  The costs.

Information & Ethics committee  I do think it comes from the top. I think deputy ministers, etc., have to show that this is significant. It can be in people's performance appraisals. It can be reflected. Maybe they should be getting rewarded in some way for finding ways to make things more open. A lot of the technology that exists to make things more open is expensive, so there are a lot of balances in terms of where you're going to spend money and so forth.

Information & Ethics committee  I think we are prepared to go forward on the basis of these recommendations, which don't include having more access. I think there are many phases and many levels in which you can look at revisions to this legislation, the culture, and the opportunities for openness. I don't know, because I haven't done the statistics, how many people from other countries have made requests through third parties, and I don't know if anyone knows.