Public Safety committee  I have also spoken.... Oftentimes some of this injection equipment is fashioned from BIC pens, from different materials that are found in the prison system. We've seen numerous examples of things that prisoners have constructed out of the available material they already have access to.

Public Safety committee  I absolutely agree that the safety of staff is paramount and important. We work on an evidence base. We've looked at the needle-syringe programs that have existed since 1992. It's been almost 20 years that they've existed around the world, and as I mentioned, in multiple sites and in different contexts.

Public Safety committee  Absolutely. We always underscore the fact that prison health is public health. I've spoken to a number of prison physicians who work in Canada and who treat people with HIV and hepatitis C who say they are 100% certain that people are being infected inside while they're on waiting lists for treatment.

Public Safety committee  I think it's unrealistic. Although we have a zero tolerance policy for drugs outside in the community, we have needle and syringe programs in the community for people who are drug-dependent, to protect their health.

Public Safety committee  I think it's laudable but unrealistic. These people are arguably suffering more greatly from drug dependence because, as Seth mentioned, many people are incarcerated for drug-related offences. The correctional investigator pointed out that 15% of people on any given day are actually on treatment.

Public Safety committee  I think aiming for that will undermine people's health. I mean, without implementing other programs—

Public Safety committee  I'm saying it's unrealistic. There's no prison in the world that has no drugs.

Public Safety committee  Thank you, Chair. I'll begin, if that's okay. Thank you to the standing committee for allowing us to make this submission. I'm with the Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network. We're a national non-governmental organization working to promote the human rights of people living with and vulnerable to HIV/AIDS in Canada and internationally, through research, legal and policy analysis, education, and community mobilization.

Public Safety committee  Absolutely. And from a cost view as well.

Public Safety committee  Yes. In evaluations where these programs exist, the frank conversations that prisoners have with health care staff and with peer health workers who have been trained on harm reduction and drug addiction and treatment have led to referrals of people to drug treatment programs. So that was what the evidence has demonstrated.

Public Safety committee  Yes. When we know that CSC provides bleach, and the singular reason for that bleach provision is to clean needles for HIV, and it's not effective at all for hepatitis C cleansing, then it's inconsistent, absolutely. Bleach is provided with instructions on how to clean syringes and needles for injection drug use.

Public Safety committee  Thank you.

Public Safety committee  And that's based on their distribution network.

Public Safety committee  They're pennies.

Public Safety committee  I don't think it's ambivalence. I think it's a recognition of the reality that people use drugs. In the community, we ban drugs, and we provide needle and syringe programs based on the public health and cost evidence. So I think it would be a recognition of the reality that people are suffering from addictions.