Justice committee  It's the relationship between where someone's nose touches another person's finger.

Justice committee  Sorry.

Justice committee  My understanding of the case is that Mr. Wirik did not obtain the mortgage discharge. It was a failure in terms of executing his office. That's what he was eventually charged for. So you're absolutely correct, I don't think there would have been any impact from Bill S-4 on this type of fraud.

Justice committee  You're welcome.

Justice committee  The main point is that we're concerned that a fraud that is committed with a credit card could result in someone with more jail time than a fraud that is committed by somebody who conveys or mortgages property fraudulently. I say that because of the cases of the POAs that are abused, other issues of that nature, and people who are impersonating their family members with the same name.

Justice committee  Yes.

Justice committee  No.

Justice committee  There's usually an escalation in fraud. Fraudsters usually start with credit card scams and insurance claims, and then they manifest and they get more clever and they use mortgage fraud and title fraud. We would like to see a minimum penalty around title and real estate fraud. I would again point to the Georgia act, where they actually have created an offence for what they call real estate fraud racketeering.

Justice committee  There is a specific provision in the code already. What we're asking is that it be updated and amended to make it effective. So there's already a section in the code. What we understand is that it's not being used effectively. It's not being used as frequently. We'd like it to be updated so that it can be used.

Justice committee  As a member pointed out previously, identity theft is covered within the bill and there is a section that currently exists in the Criminal Code that talks about fraudulent registration as well as fraudulent registration of a mortgage. We would like to ensure that if somebody is convicted of a fraudulent transaction either through title and transfer of title....

Justice committee  I can refer you to a bill from Georgia, which is the Georgia Residential Mortgage Fraud Act. It sets out a very good definition of what mortgage fraud should be. They've identified that: A person commits the offense of residential mortgage fraud when, with the intent to defraud, such person: (1) Knowingly makes any deliberate misstatement, misrepresentation, or omission during the mortgage lending process with the intention that it be relied on by a mortgage lender, borrower, or any other party to the mortgage lending process; That's very similar to what we have now in section 386, but it goes on to state: (2) Knowingly uses or facilitates the use —which is distinctive and different from what we have in section 386— of any deliberate misstatement, misrepresentation, or omission, knowing the same to contain a misstatement, misrepresentation, or omission during the mortgage lending process with the intention that it be relied on by a mortgage lender, borrower, or any other party to the mortgage lending process; This is where we have recommended this also be included in section 386: (3) Receives any proceeds or any other funds in connection with a residential mortgage closing that such person knew resulted from a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) of this Code section; So they don't have to knowingly do something, they just have to be with an intent to deceive.

Justice committee  I believe we had some discussions with them--not me personally, but other members of the Title Insurance Association.

Justice committee  Yes. We firmly believe that if you steal someone's title or their equity in their home, it should be an aggravating factor under these offences.

Justice committee  I would include all properties, even leasehold interests on native lands. I would be very extensive in what's captured.

Justice committee  There are a lot of cases where legal professionals across the country have been duped. There are also cases where there have been fraudulent notarial offices and law firms developed and sent to mortgage brokers for mortgage fraud.