Canadian Heritage committee  The Canada Council gave grants under this program. They gave money that was not expected to be paid back. It was up to 60% of the cost of the project based on the percentage of Canadian content, which was often 100%. I hope that's clear. It was free money that did not need to be paid back and it gave the artists the licence to do what they did.

Canadian Heritage committee  First, FACTOR technically does not give grants to make records; they give grants for other things. They give loans. Those loans are forgivable—I think you get three in a lifetime. You're supposed to pay them back in CD sales, at a buck a sale. Some people do, some don't. At the higher level, you'll find that FACTOR essentially is a bank that loans money for free to big labels for popular artists who get the money from FACTOR and pay it back every time.

Canadian Heritage committee  That's not the case at the Canada Council. The Canada Council still operates on peer review. Not to beat up on FACTOR too much—I've been on their juries—but they use a three-jury process, so it's relatively opaque. At the Canada Council, at the end of the meeting the next year they release the list of peers, so you know who did you in or who was generous to you.

Canadian Heritage committee  I think they wanted to kill the program. They wanted to take the money. They wanted to give it to FACTOR, partially because there had been some cuts in international marketing that they wanted to restore. Essentially, they picked a panel that would give them the decision they wanted, which is not unusual in government, I've been given to understand.

Canadian Heritage committee  If I could predict what was going to be happening in the music industry in 10 to 20 years with any accuracy, I'd be a lot more wealthy than I am today. Nobody in the music industry understands what is going to happen, except for one thing. We know that artists are going to be creating music, recording music, and they are going to be disseminating the recordings of that music.

Canadian Heritage committee  No, I don't think so. Jesse dealt a little bit.... The first time I worked with Rita MacNeil, we drew 40 people. It was a long time ago. The last time I worked with her, we drew 12,500 people. She didn't need a Canada Council grant when we were drawing 12,500 people. She certainly did when we were drawing 40 people.

Canadian Heritage committee  I don't personally receive these grants, but I provide management services to many artists who do. I didn't make a list, but I did look for an article I wrote for a B.C. publication that asked me about this, and in 2006-07 there were 16 recordings funded in British Columbia, for a total of $164,000.

Canadian Heritage committee  My understanding is that the decision was made by three people from the commercial music industry, which was a little bit like consulting a group of foxes on whether the chicken coop needed a fence, and the answer was predictable.

Canadian Heritage committee  Yes, I understand that they're strong words, but they--

Canadian Heritage committee  No, I don't think so. I think basically they were lobbied by the industry because of the cuts last year in DFAIT to the Trade Routes program, etc. They said, “Why don't you take some money from the weak and the poor and give it to us, because we're successful and we'll do good things with it.”

Canadian Heritage committee  No, but it's going to an international promotions fund at FACTOR. That's where the new money is.

Canadian Heritage committee  There are some provincial programs in some provinces.

Canadian Heritage committee  Yes, in Quebec, in Manitoba, in Alberta, in Ontario, but certainly from British Columbia, no, and some other provinces also no, and those are not necessarily always specifically for sound recording. In Ontario, for instance, they have a popular music program at the Ontario Arts Council, but it's for everything.

Canadian Heritage committee  Yes. When I say it's a crime, it's because it robs the future of knowing what great artists are creating today, because they may perform this work, etc., they may create this work, but the ability to preserve it forever was something that the sound recording program provided support for, which means that in a hundred years we'll still be able to listen to these, and who knows, forever.

Canadian Heritage committee  I will try to keep this short. Frankly, I could have sent what I had to say, but flying from Vancouver here and back in a day gives you an opportunity to maybe ask some questions that I can answer. First, I'm not a musician. I live off the work of musicians. I'm an artist manager.