Finance committee  The point is that if they don't have the financial means to contribute, so that they can't do it on a voluntary basis, then they'll have trouble doing it on an involuntary basis. What I was referring to in our research is that Canadians do make decisions. They recognize that they need to save; they recognize what options are there.

Finance committee  I'm not an investment analyst—

Finance committee  —so I couldn't tell you.

Finance committee  To your point about there being no free lunch, ultimately the retirement income that Canadians will earn is a function of two things. It's a function of how much they save and the returns they earn on that. At the end of the day, we're all investing largely in the same market. We can do it through individual RRSPs, we can do it through the PRPP, and we can do it through the Canada Pension Plan.

Finance committee  I couldn't give you a number, but I think the performance has not been stellar.

Finance committee  I think there is a hope that it will be recovering, yes.

Finance committee  I work for the trade association. I'm not a banker. It will depend very much on the institutions. To make this product work, it has to be appealing to the institutions that are administrators—they have to make money off it. It has to be appealing to the SMEs that would participate in it, and it has to be appealing to their employees who decide, because they will have the ability to opt out.

Finance committee  Can we predict the future? No.

Finance committee  If we're talking about the profitability of banks, we all know what happens when a banking system is not profitable. Profitability contributes to the safety and soundness not only of the institutions but also of the industry more broadly, and it contributes positively to the economy.

Finance committee  However, at the end of the day, we are only profitable when we can deliver services to our customers that they view as being valuable. We do so in a competitive environment. If a particular institution isn't doing a good job of providing services to its customers, they will go elsewhere and that institution will not be profitable.

Finance committee  I agree exactly with what Dan said. I think it's important that through the PRPP there will be competition in the marketplace. There will be options that SMEs can have. If they find one that is not performing well, they can move to another one. Again, I said earlier that we deliver a wide range of products to Canadians.

Finance committee  I just have a couple of things. First of all, when it comes to the CPP, as with any other pension or savings plan, the amount that you get out of it at the end of the day depends on what you earn and the risks that you take. The investment that a PRPP would make is exactly the same kind of investment you would make in a company pension plan, or in the CPP, or in the public service pension plan.

Finance committee  It's a defined benefit—

Finance committee  --but it is invested in the market. Ultimately, the ability to deliver on those benefits will be dependent on the return that it earns.

Finance committee  Right.