Foreign Affairs committee  First of all, I think there is a big opportunity, as Katleen has said very clearly, in microinsurance. Some Canadian insurance companies could join hands with microfinance organizations that have the field presence. Swiss Re, partnering with Fonkoze, literally, after much preparation, insured 60,000 families across Haiti against catastrophic disaster, so if an earthquake, God forbid, or a major flood were to happen tomorrow in Haiti, Fonkoze's clients would be insured.

Foreign Affairs committee  I have two very quick things, drawing from my Bangladesh experience. Most of the loans that are made to women, and they predominantly are women, are actually to family-owned businesses. A lot of people, such as the husband and the adult children, are involved, and it can even become an after-school activity for the children who are younger.

Foreign Affairs committee  There are two things, and maybe Katleen can add to it. This is one of the 150 organizations that use the index, although they've added some of their own survey questions. Basically it's a scientific way, based on the progress out of poverty index, of using the intelligence you get out of the national census survey to calibrate a special 10-question survey to correlate a family with where they are on the poverty spectrum.

Foreign Affairs committee  Yes.

Foreign Affairs committee  They're very obviously based on context and inflation. I'll take the example of the Grameen Bank that I refer to the most. Commercial loans are 20%, so if you take into account inflation, they're less than an American consumer pays on credit card debt. There are student loans for 5%.

Foreign Affairs committee  It is under 3%, which is basically the norm, except following natural disasters. Historically with Grameen it's been under 1.5%.

Foreign Affairs committee  Grameen has its own series of health initiatives: a profitable eye hospital doing cataract surgeries and health clinics attached to some Grameen branches that recover over 90% of their costs. BRAC has a different approach, which has now been replicated in Uganda. It sets up women in the business of selling non-prescription drugs and other health products.

Foreign Affairs committee  Maybe we can both answer it briefly. I think a lot of microfinance organizations in their early stages get money from donations from wealthy people in their own countries or overseas. Over time, because there's a limited pool of donated capital, that shifts to borrowing money from commercial banks.

Foreign Affairs committee  Sure, I'd be happy to. We're big believers in data telling us what's happening, but stories can give people a sense of real possibilities for making progress on poverty, so I'm happy to share those. When I was in Bangladesh, I worked for Grameen and my wife worked for BRAC, so we were considered a mixed marriage.

Foreign Affairs committee  I'd be happy to, and thank you for the question. I think this issue of over-indebtedness that you mentioned is an important one. One of the emerging best practices at the industry level is to bring in credit bureaus so that if a lender is lending to someone who is indebted to others, they can understand those levels and have certain self-regulatory guidelines.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and honourable members of the committee. I'm very pleased to be here to talk about this important issue. If I had to summarize my observation, number one, I'd say the two fields that I've been most involved in--which are, first, microfinance or financial services for the poor, and second, technology, especially information technology for poverty alleviation and development—are both classic examples of the private sector playing a role in international development alongside the public sector.