Natural Resources committee  There are two things. It can include alternative energy, absolutely, and a number of projects do. We talked about things being really cost-effective, such as the lighting and the controls. Alternative energy in the past has been the other way, but it is coming down. I know you'r

Natural Resources committee  The FBI programs now would be in the 10- to12-year payback period. They're talking about extending those periods because they're looking to get deeper greenhouse gas emission savings.

Natural Resources committee  Yes, for the life of the contract. The contract is typically for less time than the equipment lasts, so the equipment will last 25 to 30 years and the contract will be for 10 or 15 years.

Natural Resources committee  —and we're not going to give it to everybody. The criteria could be greenhouse gas costs or whatever. We're going to pick some winners and we're going to evaluate them. We're going to do this on a regular basis, and then you can control it. Getting back to your idea—

Natural Resources committee  Yes, not by name, but I know my members have had to make good on guarantees that didn't work. They'll tell me that it's a baseline problem that they were given. They made assumptions about the building that were not right and they did have to make good on those. They don't like t

Natural Resources committee  Yes, they are, absolutely, because that doesn't happen often.

Natural Resources committee  They are at risk, yes.

Natural Resources committee  They typically use modelling. It may involve infrared, but often it can be captured just by a thorough engineer going through the site and looking at the wall structure and the sizes, at the vintage of the technology, the vintage of the building. Once you've modelled it, then you

Natural Resources committee  Do you want to start?

Natural Resources committee  I agree with that. The other thing—it's hard to do, but I think it's a role governments can play—is to be strategic and put on almost a private sector hat. Do a SWOT analysis. What are our strengths? Where are our weaknesses? What are the opportunities, and what are the threats?

Natural Resources committee  It's lighting, definitely. If anyone still has T12s, change that out, or use incandescents. Lighting would probably be less than a two-year payback. Controls would be a very quick payback, two or three years. If there's an older boiler or chiller, that would be a medium length of

Natural Resources committee  Right. The typical payback for most of the FBI projects would be 10 to 12 years, and that would be a 10- to 12-year contract. In order of magnitude, a $10-million project would pay back a million dollars a year, and at the end of 10 years we're done, and that building continues t

Natural Resources committee  That's a good point. I'll give you a 20-second response on electricity prices in Ontario—

Natural Resources committee  It was about $15 billion that was invested in the electricity system in Ontario. There was all-party support for a decision to close coal-fired generation plants. That was 25% of the fleet. No matter who was in power, that was going to cost a great deal of money, and it did, and

Natural Resources committee  I'll ask JP to think about that as well. It depends on the building. Labs are different from air force bases, and they are different from office buildings, and they are different from hospitals. One of the advantages is that the performance contracting industry has been around,