Public Accounts committee  I'm going to have to defer to my colleagues on the list of companies. I'm not sure. But on the rate of return, there is no calculation right now of the rate of return. It is a dynamic concept. I'm not sure what to do with that, actually. Is there some point at which...? There cer

Public Accounts committee  Boy, that's a complicated question, because it speaks to the intent of the investors. I guess one way I would look at it is this. The incentive structure that was put in place was the subject of very intense negotiations between the Government of Canada, other governments that a

Public Accounts committee  —and as that money flows in, or prior to it flowing in, government goes and raises money in the markets. It's not a question of tracking down when the government went to the market in 2012 and the cost of that capital—

Public Accounts committee  Which is built into the capital cost, but I take your point.

Public Accounts committee  My assertion is that it's not calculable. It is in the abstract, but are we going to look at the 90-day bond that's released, the 10-year bond that's released, the 30-year bond, or the 50-year bond? Which one will be used? When governments go to the market to raise money, they do

Public Accounts committee  I think there's a narrow specific answer to that and a more general one. The narrow specific one is that the Government of Canada does not track a dollar of debt that is raised against a specific dollar of expenditure. It is not possible to say x dollar in x program is related to

Public Accounts committee  I'm sorry, it isn't quite that way as the explanations have happened because—

Public Accounts committee  —but the money that flows in.... Sorry.

Public Accounts committee  There was money committed.

Public Accounts committee  I'm making a distinction that's real. There's money committed. The money flows, as we've explained, over time through share purchases, some of which have happened, some of which will happen this year, and some of which will happen next year—

Public Accounts committee  The agreements with the fund-of-funds managers specify the types of venture capital firms that they can invest in based on those firms' strategies, and those strategies extend from the early stage through the growth stage. That was part of the program from its legal inception.

Public Accounts committee  I'll start. Sometimes there is a lot of variability in the way that people use terms. “Growth capital” has a different meaning for different actors. Is there mission creep? No, because there are legal contracts that define the scope of the investments that fund-of-funds managers

Public Accounts committee  We know it has to do with the timing of capital calls.

Public Accounts committee  It was a competitive process. It was launched publicly. It was launched through Réseau capital and the Canadian Venture Capital and Private Equity Association. We worked closely with both associations, all through the process. All I can say—

Public Accounts committee  —is that I am not aware—