Human Resources committee  I would also add there is some literature on the difference between larger non-profits that are able to hire lawyers and accountants to provide for the risk they could be entering into with these projects. This is a challenge for smaller non-profits that simply don't have the funds, but are still perhaps desperate for that money and so might enter into one of these projects without perhaps having that—

Human Resources committee  It's actually been mainly philanthropic capital rather than private capital that's been used to fund these projects.

Human Resources committee  Not really, but the school is interested in it. They actually did a little feature on our work in the newsletter/magazine that went out to the whole university. Certainly the university is interested in social innovation.

Human Resources committee  —stable advice or realizing what they are getting into.

Human Resources committee  I can tell you that the popular policy areas we've seen so far have been around recidivism. There have been several projects in the U.K., as we talked about. Also there's a New York City recidivism project that's currently ongoing, as well as homelessness projects, unemployment projects, early childhood education projects, and health care projects.

Human Resources committee  One interesting thing about the SIB model is that it's being developed right now. It's shifting and changing, and a lot of the literature is just trying to get a handle on it. One model is to contract with an intermediary, for government to contract with the intermediary. It's the intermediary that designs the project, finds the private investors, finds the service agencies, and contracts with the service agencies.

Human Resources committee  Yes, exactly.

Human Resources committee  Yes.

Human Resources committee  Yes. In terms of studying them, I would also add qualitative studies with the service clients as well, to ask them about how this is perhaps improving quality of life and that sort of thing.

Human Resources committee  Yes. I think part of why governments are interested in SIBs in the first place is this idea, not of getting something for nothing, but that they should only pay for outcomes in the end. I think the research out there that we've compiled and the literature that exists now show that there are short-term costs associated with creating the infrastructure to develop SIBs, including new skills for bureaucrats and additional costs for lawyers and accountants, as well as evaluation.

Human Resources committee  As I said, I think with the SIB model there is a risk of really focusing on the larger projects rather than on projects that meet niche needs for the most vulnerable populations, so focusing on more lucrative projects that investors can make money off of. I think what you're speaking to is a real risk.

Human Resources committee  Absolutely. We're doing a joint presentation, so that works well. Of course, thank you for inviting us to be witnesses here today. Our research in the area of social finance really focuses in on social impact bonds, or SIBs, which are a financial product or policy tool used to pool private sector investment to support social service projects with the attendant promise of a profit if the project meets pre-arranged outcome targets.