Finance committee  Yes, I think you've hit an important point—the question of aid. I think the answer lies in what aid goes towards and how strong the institutions are that you're going to invest in or provide aid to. Perhaps an interesting example may be Mali, which for quite an amount of time many people would say was doing well and did not have that much of a jihadist problem several years back.

Finance committee  Yes.

Finance committee  It depends on the item. ISIS will tax up to 20%, 50%, or more, depending on the items, from reports I've seen. It very much depends on the individuals involved, the item, and how valuable the item is. There is not a set price.

Finance committee  The items are smuggled. At the end of the day, the chain is murky, to be very honest. You have people who smuggle other types of goods across borders, who smuggle oil, who smuggle people, and you have similar people involved here. You have middlemen whose job it is to smuggle and to find an underground black market.

Finance committee  I don't know if anyone else here wants to say anything, but I'll say a little bit about this. We didn't talk about the smuggling route. What happens is that ISIS, even with the low oil prices, will sell oil at a discount. Because of that discount, it's really just driven the smuggling.

Finance committee  The approach I'm laying out is to really highlight how organizations receive their funding.

Finance committee  Sure. Specifically with reference to the Islamic State, it's probably important to point out how this happens. It's not necessarily a case of guys from ISIS going out and digging and looting artifacts and sculptures that they find themselves. What you have is a phenomenon such that they have control of an area, they control the territory, and they pretty much allow the locals to dig, and they tax the proceeds.

Finance committee  Yes, thank you. To respond, the key issue is distinguishing what we're talking about when we discuss financing. At the beginning of my statement I mentioned that an act of violence itself does not really cost much money. I think what's important to understand—and you make reference to the $1 million to $2 million dollars a day from oil....

Finance committee  I'm trying to think of specific examples, and it's difficult. In the situations that I mentioned, we're talking about environments where the terrorist groups have control, where there isn't much of a government presence. However, if we look at what has happened in war zones—the wars in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq—clearly there were examples.

Finance committee  Thank you. In terms of organizations or businesses themselves, I'll start with charitable organizations. There are two parts to this. First, are organizations being used unwittingly or wittingly? Much of what we've seen involves witting participation, so that's one of the key issues.

Finance committee  We need the tools, because from the investigative standpoint, whether it's a government investigator, an intelligence investigator, or a private investigator, you have to use public records, and you have to identify. When we talk about charities, if there's a layer of opacity that keeps you from understanding who the true beneficiary is, that makes it very difficult to connect the dots, so to speak.

Finance committee  Yes. One of the key points that I mentioned is that yes, military support, diplomatic support, all of that should provide a lever for having other states, whoever they may be.... If they're receiving support for security, that definitely provides an opportunity for activity and improved oversight within their jurisdictions.

Finance committee  Good morning. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, thank you for giving me this opportunity to appear before you to discuss terrorist financing. In short, terrorist attacks do not require much capital. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula once touted how its failed plot to bomb a plane over North America in 2010 cost only $4,200.