Government Operations committee  Yes, it is included in the costs.

Government Operations committee  It is. If I could elaborate, EY did a review of the management costs that we were privileged to look at. Over the course of time, as the head count has gone down for the unionized staff, so have management numbers as well. They also, management, applied direct contribution to new hires, as opposed to a benefit pension plan.

Government Operations committee  It basically is the network costs that are common across all the lines of business that are not allocated. A small portion of that will be management costs.

Government Operations committee  We did have a look at it. I can't tell you at the top of my head.

Government Operations committee  I believe the question was basically on long-term financial self-sustainability. Certainly we have put forth a number of options for consideration. They have a sensible amount of cost-cutting and financial benefit to them and they should be considered. Over the long haul, the real problem is that Canada Post has a dual mandate.

Government Operations committee  I won't dispute that it will skew the five-year average, but in reality we looked at each of those years individually. The results were that three of the years basically ran deficits. Not until the exceptional price increase kicked in did that change. Although you are mathematically correct, we looked at each year on its own merits and did not dwell on that one-off.

Government Operations committee  Certainly we heard from the credit unions that service the more rural areas, and they were not looking for more competition, especially from Canada Post.

Government Operations committee  That's part of the option. What we concluded was that banking today is really risk management and it is not the forte of Canada Post. When we examined the hub concept, it was from a hosting perspective to meet a certain need—not only to maintain a postal presence, but to utilize that presence in the most effective way.

Government Operations committee  Our mandate was basically to look at financial self-sustainability. The benefits would be greatly outweighed by the costs of doing that, and we just didn't see it as a viable solution.

Government Operations committee  To the best of my knowledge, they do a decent job, but it's a very small portion of their profits and most Canadians look for those solutions elsewhere.

Government Operations committee  Oh, she loves numbers.

Government Operations committee  Absolutely. As discussed previously during this meeting, we had a look at the five-point plan. It was a good plan at that point in time. It wasn't fully actioned, but it's even at the root of many of our recommendations. To say that it was validated is probably correct, but it simply wasn't enough and it isn't enough today.

Government Operations committee  I believe your question is about whether the solvency test is an appropriate measure. Certainly one could argue the pros and the cons of that. One of the things we were struck with is that Canada Post Corporation, besides being a crown corporation, competes in the private sector.

Government Operations committee  Just to reiterate what Françoise said, we did look at that. It was a workable plan at the time. Times have changed. They change very quickly. Due to an increased need for consultation, particularly on the community mailboxes, the numbers changed somewhat, but directionally they were correct.

Government Operations committee  Yes, we obviously spent a fair amount of time on the pension and the solvency deficit. We looked at the fixed assets and Purolator and drew no conclusion except for the fact that it is optional, to be reviewed. Certainly our recommendation is to look at further synergies with regard to Purolator, but there are any number of fixed assets that may be redundant and could be monetized to solve, or help solve, the deficit.