Electoral Reform committee  There was a sequence. New Zealand adopted in the early mid-1990s the German MMP. That ended overnight, if you will, the conventional very stable, very solid two party system that had been in place, and you had a multi-party parliament in which coalition governments had to be formed.

Electoral Reform committee  Same question?

Electoral Reform committee  That question cuts to the core of politics and the ways of electoral reform. Electoral reforms tend to be stickier, in other words, producing longer lasting results if they have a stronger buy-in. The more inclusive the input, not only are you better informed, but the greater the transparency and the legitimacy of the process.

Electoral Reform committee  Closed list PR is, without any doubt, but it's too drastic for us in Canada. It's the other end of the spectrum. For that you need more than 12 people, as Mr. Généreux said. But by all means, if you want proportionality, go with a reasonable threshold: 4% to 5% closed list PR.

Electoral Reform committee  Spain, Portugal, Israel, Holland have it.

Electoral Reform committee  Some have more than others. Certainly Spain recently has been less stable than before. Israel is always unstable. But you have variation. How much instability PR produces really depends on the nature of parties and fragmentation, which is a function both of the system but also of how fragmented society is.

Electoral Reform committee  Given the Canadian reality, I agree with you, which is why I'm advocating for that here. The disadvantage or otherwise of list PR, like STV, is that it is going to create more parties. It is going to lead to coalition governments. It does create stronger parties. It creates internally more cohesive, more united parties.

Electoral Reform committee  Thank you very much. I'm in favour of STV precisely because of the Canadian context. If Canada wants to have a more proportional electoral system that changes as little as possible what we are familiar with and that is dear to us as voters and as the political class, which are set out in the five-point mandate, then for the reasons that I mentioned, this is the system that would come the closest, certainly closer than the other two.

Electoral Reform committee  Very quickly, thank you very much. That question is very, very dear to my heart and central to my current work, as a matter of fact. There is good reason why Edmund Burke, a few hundred years back, speaking to the electors of Bristol, actually argued something very similar to what you said.

Electoral Reform committee  Yes, the more proportional the system gets, the greater the number of viable parties there are going to be. That means there will be alternative new associations capturing new interests that may proceed, because now there's a realistic chance for them either directly to penetrate the system or by forming coalitions with other organizations to do so.

Electoral Reform committee  That is a great question. Thank you very much. Yes and no. The point there was that New Zealand was an example to illustrate that. Even a country that has adopted the most successful MMP system, that being Germany, and by successful I mean in terms of longevity, seriously considered putting it on the menu of options in the referendum for change.

Electoral Reform committee  Sure.

Electoral Reform committee  Sure. Thank you very much. When we talk about a weak government, we need to be careful, so let me nuance that particular claim. PR typically leads to avoiding a majority parliament. In other words, if there is a party that wins a majority of the votes, PR will reflect that, but that's rare.

Electoral Reform committee  No.

Electoral Reform committee  It's a tough question that becomes a question of how you draw the boundaries and how many seats you assign to those particular districts. Other than that, I'm not sure what you're getting at, but the question is whether electoral boundaries need to follow clearly and exactly provincial and territorial lines, or perhaps you imagine district boundaries in a more creative alternative fashion.