Public Accounts committee  I'm not sure I get the question there. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? I'm not sure I follow the question.

Public Accounts committee  I can say this. Whatever happens in the media or at a political level finds its way down to our members. Remember, our members are in the trenches. They're not senior management; they're the doers of the work. They see the numbers, the financial statements. It can sometimes be difficult to tie what we are trying to achieve at a very high level with what they're saying.

Public Accounts committee  I couldn't speak to the amount of money, to how much this should have cost. All I can tell you is that basic fundamentals in accounting best practices were not respected. At the end of the day, had our members been allowed to do their jobs, all of this wouldn't have happened.

Public Accounts committee  I don't know who is accountable. There's not enough evidence to suggest.... Again, we would normally follow the paper trails, but unfortunately there are no paper trails.

Public Accounts committee  Was she briefed on it or not? I couldn't speak to that. I can tell you that if my members detect any anomalies or anything that needs to be raised, they'll raise it. They don't necessarily raise it to the minister's level, because there are many layers before we get there. Again, we don't represent executives.

Public Accounts committee  Generally speaking, if we were to follow the formal process of how things are supposed to operate, my members would have been involved on the front end, not the back end. Then, had they seen anomalies.... Maybe they were involved and they didn't see any anomalies. However, based on the survey we did, I can tell you that for this project, a lot more of our members should have said, “Yes, we were consulted and we were involved.”

Public Accounts committee  I can assure you that, if our members had been not only listened to, but also consulted, none of this would have happened. When it comes to finance, we must be consulted and listened to. I'll use the example of the doctor again. If I go to see my doctor because I'm a few pounds overweight and not in the best shape, he'll tell me to watch my diet and exercise more.

Public Accounts committee  Absolutely. When you're looking to save pennies and dollars, how about a talk with the people who are managing, who see the dollars going in and going out, who take care of the budgets and the forecasts and who see the expenditures? I'm not saying we have a secret recipe here, but I can tell you from speaking to a lot of my members that it's often insulting when you don't consult with the people at the ground level who see all the ins and outs.

Public Accounts committee  The levels of productivity, I have no doubt, have increased, but there are intangibles that happen when you're working in the office. That's why I always tell my members that going into the office every once in a while makes sense. We're in the game of information, so you might walk into someone who says they're working on a project, and my members might say they weren't consulted on this or didn't know they were working on that.

Public Accounts committee  Our members don't deal directly with procurement. They're not procurement officers. They'll do some costing and they'll do some analysis. I can't speak specifically to procurement, but I will tell you that when it comes to consulting firms—I won't name names—there are bigger firms out there.

Public Accounts committee  That's correct.

Public Accounts committee  Yes, certainly. I don't think it's any secret. Generally speaking, if you work with numbers, you tend to not necessarily be a people person. You might be an introvert. I say this because we have members who do fantastic work. However, they're not necessarily the most popular when it comes to being sociable, interacting with their coworkers, going out or making a name for themselves.

Public Accounts committee  I've never witnessed kickbacks. I haven't heard any members raise kickbacks, so I can't speak to that. However, it's always a possibility. Again, that's why you have a code of ethics, that's why you have internal rules and that's why you monitor transactions to the best of your abilities.

Public Accounts committee  I couldn't comment about the CFO. I can tell you someone did not. I don't know who that person was, but someone did not do their job. There's accountability. Normally, if you follow the money and the paper trail, you'll find out who that is, but when there is no paper trail or electronic documents, it makes it very difficult to find out where the crack was in the armour.

Public Accounts committee  There's already a task force working on this right now, and we have someone on the committee. There's a report from OGGO in 2017. There are multiple measures we can take, but I think the most important is one that I mentioned. A whistle-blower needs to know that when they speak up, they will be protected, because you cannot jeopardize your career and your livelihood.