National Defence committee  Canada's efforts certainly include the national guard. We have been working with the national guard on their reform efforts. They are a much smaller entity. They are also newly re-created. In many ways, they are leading the reform effort, including how they engage with their non-commissioned members and how they do their procurement practices, which are much more transparent.

National Defence committee  It's like the Canada Border Services Agency. It's customs and border control.

National Defence committee  I think it is. I can't comment on that element of things because I don't have the details, but being able to manage your borders is extremely important. I would note that Ukraine was just made visa-free in July by the EU. They are now part of the Schengen area. Certainly, if you had been in Ukraine prior to that and then travelled after that, you would really have seen a difference in the professionalism.

National Defence committee  That's a great question and comment, which I think you partially answered yourself, but let me have a go at it. First of all, these entrenched ways, that's the legacy system. I sometimes call it a crust. There is a crust there that needs to be poked through. The crust is there for a whole bunch of reasons.

National Defence committee  Thank you for that question. I don't know the detailed demographics of the Ukrainian armed forces, which do number about 250,000, but the interesting thing about Ukraine is that many Ukrainians speak Russian and it may even be their mother tongue, because of this transition period.

National Defence committee  I'm afraid I can't answer that. I don't know if there has been a dollar figure put on it. I think that the dollar figure is extremely important. I think the mindset and the accountability mechanisms are equally important. That would be getting back to sort of an effective parliamentary oversight, an engaged civil society that could call the government to account, not just at election time, and making sure that all of the international efforts focused on corruption—and there are many—are coherent, so that we have our arms around it in a coherent sort of way.

National Defence committee  In the minds of the Canadian training mission, absolutely. Again, leading by example, so having women on our teams—women mentors, women trainers—is part of the cultural legacy. There are women within the Ukrainian military. They tend to be in the traditional services. We all speak with the chief of the general staff and with the minister about how it actually is possible to have women doing absolutely everything.

National Defence committee  In the “Strategic Defence Bulletin”, the Ukrainian armed forces, ministry of defence, national guard, and the border guard are all covered. The Defence Reform Advisory Board is focusing—by definition, because we're at the invitation of the defence minister—more on the defence side of things, but a lot of these issues are cross-sectoral.

National Defence committee  That's a very good question. I think this gets back a little bit to the legacy and just trying to get people's heads around what it means to be a civilian minister of defence. A number of wonderful countries have examples of military people becoming ministers of defence, so we know it can be done and can be done successfully.

National Defence committee  Thank you for that question. Indeed, I failed to touch on one area I wanted to raise, which is that I do work closely with the Verkhovna Rada and with Oksana Syroyid, whom you met, and her committee members. One of the commitments under the “Strategic Defence Bulletin” and pillar one, which is the pillar I am actually working on most closely, is improving the relationship with the Rada.

National Defence committee  Thank you for the question. Corruption is an ongoing issue, and if any of you follow the news from Ukraine, you know that recently one of the deputy ministers of the defence department was arrested on charges of corruption. Corruption is one of the lines that permeates the “Strategic Defence Bulletin”.

National Defence committee  You are absolutely right, sir. It's all about the implementation. There is a Ukrainian anti-corruption office, and indeed it was this office that actually arrested the gentleman last week. I think it's a mater of figuring out how to more effectively bring together the international effort.

National Defence committee  —but I think it's the momentum, and for me it's about the trajectory.

National Defence committee  With regard to the three challenges and perhaps the three action areas, I think that there may be some confluence between them in a way. You heard a little bit from the previous speakers. One of the challenges is legacy systems, and that, for me, captures a whole bunch of stuff.

National Defence committee  I mean governance writ large because the minute you start to talk about defence, what you find, or what I found in my work, is that all roads lead to the strategic level.