Natural Resources committee  Yes, I certainly agree with that. You want to go into the growth sectors, not the declining sectors, if you want a healthy, sustainable economy.

Natural Resources committee  Sorry, the $12 billion for what? I didn't catch that.

Natural Resources committee  Yes, I really can't confirm that figure. It's not part of my studies.

Natural Resources committee  I haven't done a comparison of the financial support for the different sectors, but if you took the $21.4 billion that we have now committed to Trans Mountain and invested it in other sectors, or even if we increased the tolls on Trans Mountain to reduce the losses, we'd have more funding available for these high-growth sectors.

Natural Resources committee  Oil demand is declining worldwide. It's a declining industry according to the IEA. We're one of the highest-cost producers in the world. If you wanted to continue expanding oil production, you'd have to provide subsidies, but that would impose a cost on the economy. You'd probably be better off investing in growth sectors as opposed to a declining sector.

Natural Resources committee  Yes, you're absolutely right. The International Energy Agency's most recent report forecasts to achieve net zero...an 80% reduction by 2050. Even under different scenarios, oil production demand peaks around 2025. If we continue to expand the oil and gas sector, we will be creating stranded assets.

Natural Resources committee  Yes, that is certainly correct. The tolls, as I said, were set on the basis of the $7.4-billion capital cost, not for the $21.4 billion we're currently spending. The tolls that will be charged to oil shippers are at roughly a 50% discount of what the economic tolls should be. You could certainly increase tolls and still make it competitive for shippers, because you could use, as a benchmark, the tolls being charged on shipping to the U.S. gulf coast and other places as indicators.

Natural Resources committee  You should definitely increase the tolls. Right now, as I said, there's a subsidy of about 50% on the toll for each barrel of oil shipped. If you increase the tolls, you still won't generate money for other activities. You will simply be reducing the losses on the $21.4-billion investments.

Natural Resources committee  Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee. I am a professor in resource and environmental management at Simon Fraser University. I've also held senior positions in various provincial governments, including assistant deputy minister of energy and mines, deputy minister of finance and deputy minister of environment.