Foreign Affairs committee  The first thing is to learn what not to do. What we've seen happening with U.S. sanctions in the past 10 years or so is a consequence of overcompliance in financial sector de-risking. That has very broad-ranging ramifications that go way beyond the intended functions of sanctions.

Foreign Affairs committee  Absolutely. This is very much the focus of my work elsewhere. The first point is to have regular interactions and dialogue in a way that can be done in a trusted forum where a common language is established, because it takes time. My experience has shown that it can take a number of years to build up the trust required for different sectors to communicate with one another effectively on these delicate topics.

Foreign Affairs committee  That's a great question. I would say that all governments are most likely using a set of internal benchmarks of a kind. Whether or not it's a very comprehensive or established methodology is another question. I would say that there are certainly ways we can start to think about different types of impacts.

Foreign Affairs committee  When it comes to your question on other countries, the key here is this: There are various initiatives under way in the U.S. and the EU, as far as I understand it. I know Canada is closely involved in some of those discussions, as well. I think that's a very positive thing. With regard to your question on sanctions on countries serving as funnels, this is definitely being discussed elsewhere at the moment.

Foreign Affairs committee  To an extent, this has already begun with some of the coordination that's happening on the Russia sanctions. My understanding is that a lot of the time, some of the relationships or mechanisms are quite informal in nature and perhaps depend on individuals who are in certain positions.

Foreign Affairs committee  Yes. There are certainly lots of things that could be done and that could draw on methods that have been developed elsewhere. In parallel to that, I think there are really important things that Canada could be doing and I believe has already started to do. The first is to create something of a trisector group within the country.

Foreign Affairs committee  I think it's a huge challenge elsewhere, not just in Canada. First of all, Canada doesn't have the investigative or enforcement capabilities that the Office of Foreign Assets Control in the U.S. Treasury has. There, the staffing is in the hundreds of people, and the sophistication of the techniques they use has also been honed over many years.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much for the question. This is a challenge that's faced by all those who are making use of sanctions autonomously, and also in the United Nations as well. Mechanisms or tools to assess the effectiveness and impacts are not very well developed yet. Nevertheless, there are methodologies out there that could be adapted, should those states wish to do so.

Foreign Affairs committee  Sure. We see stepped-up outreach by the U.S. and European Union, and that's also to reduce overcompliance, which has become a growing problem, particularly in relation to financial sector de-risking, but in order to do so, again, it really does require proper resourcing and capacity.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much. Chair and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I've been working on multilateral and autonomous sanctions for 20 years or so. During this time I've explored questions of the impacts, effectiveness and coordination of sanctions regimes, such as those targeting Russia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea and so on.