Justice committee  Can I just jump in quickly? The experience in New Zealand is instructive, because they decriminalized in 2003. Sex workers there have access to labour tribunals, human rights tribunals and all the protections that other people in other legal decriminalized sectors have access to.

Justice committee  Is that a question for the two of us? No. I don't think it would improve capturing exploitation. Improving capturing exploitation would mean allowing people in the sex industry to have access to labour rights, employment rights and occupational health and safety rights. You're just muddying the waters right now if you add that condition.

Justice committee  Thank you. As we noted in our joint submission, I would like to reject the bill in its entirety. In 2012 there was a subjective requirement with regard to human trafficking. That was changed to this reasonable person standard because of the notion that it was too hard to convict if you required complainants' testimony.

Justice committee  I've talked to many sex workers and third parties who are being double-charged with sex work and human trafficking offences. I think it's really problematic to suggest that the low conviction rates are because it's hard to prove human trafficking. They are because police and prosecutors are charging people and expecting people to plead to the charge of sex work.

Justice committee  Yes. Thank you for that, Mr. Garrison. I'll take that first, Elene, and then I'll pass it over to you. We mentioned in particular the decriminalization of sex work, because we think this bill equates sex work with sexual exploitation. Decriminalizing sex work, when you actually do that, allows people who are experiencing abuse and exploitation within sex work to have the benefits of labour and employment legislation, occupational health and safety legislation and all the things that other people within non-criminalized sectors have access to.

Justice committee  Thank you, Chair. I am sharing my time with Elene Lam, who will go first.

Justice committee  Thank you, Elene. My name is Sandra Ka Hon Chu. I'm co-executive director of the HIV Legal Network. I have two main points to add about Bill S-224. First, the removal of the threat to safety requirement will capture cases where no exploitation exists. Proponents of this bill describe difficulties obtaining direct evidence from a potential complainant, but the test today is already an objective one and does not require a complainant's testimony.