Industry committee  I think there are many things that can be done. First of all, if you look at the policy for Mila, in Quebec, for its AI institute, it says, “we do not write patents for anything we do, and we publish our research.” You have to start saying these are critical assets that we need to appropriate for the benefit of Canada, because we have to get it through our heads that nobody's going to look after Canada but Canadians—economically, on security and socially.

Industry committee  Sure. The EU had comprehensive consultations on its Digital Markets Act, Digital Services Act and the recent AI Act. I would encourage this committee to consider what the EU has done, both on the sovereign cloud, in Gaia-X, and on its high-performance computing environment, because Canada has some standing with the horizons project in that we could back into it.

Industry committee  You have to look at all of these things. Europe's doing all of these things. It has a very federated partnership approach. Canada has lots of linkages there, but we don't seem to be exploiting them. We're neither fish nor fowl, which puts us in a very dangerous spot. If we double down on that approach—evidence the efforts to build a whole new supercomputer in one of the superclusters—I think it's very misguided, very premature and very dangerous.

Industry committee  Yes. This idea that you have the right to see what they're doing, and contest it, is not there.

Industry committee  The companies certainly don't want transparency. Why would they? They want it voluntary and opaque. How do you know what the problem is, and how do you contest it, even if you somehow find out—which you really can't, because they have no duty to notify?

Industry committee  No legislation is better than bad legislation; however, you do need to regulate this realm, and I think it needs to be done expeditiously but thoughtfully. We will be harmed if we don't regulate this properly—privacy and algorithms together—but they need to be done so that they're effective and not just an exercise in theatre.

Industry committee  Sure, you could do a comprehensive set of amendments to make it proper, but you will always deal with the democratic integrity issue, and the first nations have said that they're going to litigate on Bill C-27 and AIDA. You're always going to have an integrity issue. You could do sufficient amendments to make it appropriate, from my point of view, but how do you have legitimacy from the stakeholders?

Industry committee  I think you need to have civil society properly represented. You need to have those who reflect the domestic economy and not the foreign economy. Domestic companies that trade globally and will drive up our GDP per capita need to be weighted here, not those that drive up foreign countries' GDP per capita.

Industry committee  Well, put it within.... There's nothing saying that you can't run it within the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and extend its mandate and resources. It has parliamentary direct reporting that is well established and well respected. By the way, all of these issues of adequacy and so on that we're looking for build upon the Privacy Commissioner's work, so this idea of adequacy in Europe is a living document that's actually contextualized on case decisions, principally from our courts and our Privacy Commissioner.

Industry committee  Sure, you can go at communities. That was one of my comments—communities and groups, first nations, visible minorities—but again, if you get the human rights and a right not to be discriminated against, it gets it right up front, and then, when it happens downstream, that becomes the inalienable reference point of the courts, so be careful.

Industry committee  Yes, thank you for that. What I was trying to say is that this commissioner needs to be independent of ISED and have more powers than the competition commissioner or the Privacy Commissioner, who have been asking for more power. They do not set the standard; they themselves want a higher standard.

Industry committee  Yes. I've always taken a crosscutting effects and rights approach to it, not a technological one, so I agree with those who frame it that way. Beware of those who think the answer to technology issues is more technology. I think the place that is going to be hurt the most by far by AIDA and Bill C-27 is Quebec.

Industry committee  Well, I think that can apply to everything, but as an example, the CCLA challenged elements of recent government actions and was successful. If you don't even have the window to do it, then it can never happen. It's to have not only transparency but contestability. Yes, then there's an issue of resources to do it, but that's where we can ask the question of a strong civil society for Canada to deal with this.

Industry committee  Thank you for the question. First of all, I would say it doesn't have democratic legitimacy if it hasn't involved all stakeholders, and that hasn't happened yet. The second thing about this is that, as I said, the existential risk is gaslighting to take you away from the near-term risks, which the other witnesses are drawing us to, and that's a real tactic.

Industry committee  Yes.