National Defence committee  As I said, it's become significantly more difficult. We're able to get less and less documentation or don't have the ability to access it. I'd go back to honourable member Collins' comment about media in general. We've seen that a lot of the institutions that are critical for the oversight of government are becoming weaker.

National Defence committee  It's hard to say. You saw a creep. It wasn't as dramatic as, let's say, the discussion with officials and our ability to access through public affairs... Rather, I saw over time that the requests I made.... There's no way to quantify this in an empirical manner to show that there's been a policy change.

National Defence committee  I would say that one of the biggest things I've noticed when comparing Canada to, let's say, the United States or other countries is that any information connected to foreign sources or anything that is even remotely within that area immediately gets classified or is subject to much greater scrutiny for classification.

National Defence committee  I covered this somewhat before. It goes back to the discussion I had with Mr. Bezan earlier and the answers that Colonel Drapeau suggested. CAF members certainly know their rights. They know what their position entails and they're pretty fastidious about it. As I was trying to answer earlier, we don't really have a culture of brown envelopes and leaks compared with how it is in other countries, such as the United States or the United Kingdom, where you see a significant leakage of documentation to affect policy or public perceptions.

National Defence committee  No, this referred to people who were part of the future fighter capability program, which was to replace the CF-18s and ultimately ended up purchasing the F-35s. I believe it also included individuals who were part of the interim buy with the Super Hornets and then later on the surplus Australian Air Force F/A-18As.

National Defence committee  I did not, and I won't go too far in depth on this topic. I think this area, especially with the gag order—and I'll expand a bit on it—was unprecedented in the sense that most members of the Canadian Forces who operate in these areas already know and have a very good sense of what they can or cannot speak to.

National Defence committee  One point I want to make is that I agree a hundred per cent with Colonel Drapeau's comment about 30 days versus 60 or 90. I believe that 30 is supposed to be one of the quickest mandated responses. When you are getting extension after extension, I would rather, as you've said, have the documentation be...to get it right at a certain point than just having this ad hoc process.

National Defence committee  It wasn't intended as such.

National Defence committee  I'll take a different view of this, quickly. What body you create or how it is organized isn't necessarily the issue. I think the issue is what kind of teeth you give that body. Look at the United States, let's say, and how congressional committees work there, and how effective they are at getting answers out of departmental representatives.

National Defence committee  I would agree with that. I would say that utilizing staff resources generally for policy-making doesn't help. It is an onerous burden for the departmental staff, who are, as I said, overburdened. There are not enough individuals who can undertake this. In their day-to-day work, they are going to err on the side of caution, especially if it's a side job they're doing in addition to their main duties.

National Defence committee  Could I give a quick response?

National Defence committee  Look at the statistical information that's put out by the office about how many documents have been released over the past decade and a bit. The number of documents hasn't changed. About 10,000 pages have been released, and the number of requests has roughly stayed the same. There have been fewer questions the past couple years.

National Defence committee  I think that is much more complex. In my experience, and Colonel Drapeau can probably elaborate much better than I can, it often requires a very clear understanding of what you're trying to find, even the document name and number. Even then, I've seen exclusions occur that require a grievance because we know it exists.

National Defence committee  I think it is significant. I could talk to you about specific cases where individuals were aghast at what occurred. We entrust these individuals in a lot of cases—

National Defence committee  Absolutely. I can think of specific cases where individuals left because of the gag order.