Finance committee  Surely, and I think that's fair enough, but people have to have the tools to be able to get through that door.

Finance committee  These are indeed positive steps. We need to get more training so that people can get back to work. We need to get those skills honed so that they can begin to contribute to society and look after their families like any one of us.

Finance committee  That's a difficult one. I think some of these are in concert, and work together. Besides the income being shifted to a higher level, I think child care is a very important one so that people can know that their children are being looked after fairly and are in good hands. But there are also the other things I've mentioned, the training and so on.

Finance committee  I don't have that figure with me, no.

Finance committee  Well, I think what we're looking at is that the fund needs to be increased so that at the end of the day the recipients from the provinces and territories will get more from being on welfare.

Finance committee  I think I'm saying a general increase is what is required. I don't have those figures to tell you what numbers they are, but we know that funds were cut from that fund when the Liberal government came into power, and that fund needs to be brought back up to a point where more funding will be available, at the end of the day, for people who are on welfare.

Finance committee  Well, certainly for people to be able to move from welfare to work there are a number of steps that need to take place. It's not just income. There are a number of issues around child care, around training. There are a number of issues that need to be addressed if somebody is going to get back to work.

Finance committee  Yes, it's regressive.

Finance committee  Surely, I don't agree with you.

Finance committee  You're asking for an answer and I'll give it to you. I'm just telling you where I sit and where the National Council of Welfare sits.

Finance committee  No.

Finance committee  No, it doesn't, because they're not buying the kinds of qualities and big items that people with more income would buy.

Finance committee  It was a good thing, a good move.

Finance committee  No, we have not costed that out.

Finance committee  I think it's a tax that is maybe not so beneficial for the people.