Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I would like to echo that. We do not see the dialogue as an either/or; it should be complementary. If the situation reaches a point that a council resolution is necessary, by all means.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I can start on that one. I was in Beijing about two months ago. Rights and Democracy is developing a modest program in China. I can say this: a civil society is emerging in China. It is not a strong civil society. It is not a strong independent sector. It faces all sorts of legal registration problems, but nevertheless a very good group of people is emerging with whom we can work directly, not necessarily to stand on a pedestal and denounce the Chinese government and talk about human rights, but to work with them in terms of building their capacity to organize better by giving them the capacity to advocate better on certain issues.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  May I just add one very quick point regarding the Olympics? I wholeheartedly agree with Alex Neve, but we shouldn't just see the Olympics as an end point. What could happen in China after the Olympics could be a lot worse than what is happening before them, so they are using this as a way of demonstrating.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  If there's time, I'll add something to that.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I'll make three quick points. The dialogue is not working; we know that. But what we are saying is that it could be made better. It could work. Potentially it could work, and therefore we're making recommendations to actually try to get some results out of it and suspend it until then.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Perhaps I can take the first part regarding the quantifiable things and other international models. I can then turn to Charles. The question regarding benchmarks and what is quantifiable bedevils any kind of programming that deals with democratization and human rights. How do you measure these things?

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  It's very brief, just to say that I fully agree about CIDA, regarding the targeted aid. But in the Chinese context there's also a huge gap emerging between the actual law and what goes on underground. I think we could benefit quite a bit from targeting the system and could try to address that gap.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Kenney, and thank you to the subcommittee for this invitation. Normally it would be the president of Rights and Democracy, or the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development, Jean-Louis Roy, who would address this committee. However, he is travelling; hence I have taken his place on this occasion.