Human Resources committee  If I could also answer your question, you have to make sure that whatever plan is created addresses family units, that it's not all just for single people, because there's a huge need for families, and particularly with immigrant and refugee poverty, a lot of them have large families.

Human Resources committee  I was reading Senator Segal's arguments in the paper the other day, and he's been advocating that for a long time. I listened in on the earlier panel, so I heard some of Jean Swanson's provisos, things you need to take into account. So I think the idea of a guaranteed annual income a lot of us would support, but the devil is in the details, and we'd have to make sure that it's set, and we'd want to have some input into what is a reasonable threshold, who wins, who loses, and how it is paid for.

Human Resources committee  I would just quickly comment on the issue of tax credits. We really need to look at that. If you take something simple like access to recreation for young people, the current tax credit doesn't work, because you have to have the money to put up front to get the tax credit. For low-income families, they just can't get their kids into soccer or whatever in the first place, so a tax credit does them no good.

Human Resources committee  We do feel our provincial government's in denial on this issue, quibbling about either the measurements or giving us lists of things it's doing, all of which have merit. The numbers are the numbers. We're the worst in the country on child poverty for six years in a row, and we're the worst in the country on poverty in general.

Human Resources committee  That would be our recommendation. The UCCB, as you know, is perhaps misnamed as a child care benefit. It doesn't create new spaces or buy much child care for parents. There's nothing wrong with a national family benefit or something like that for all families. We like universal programs, but it doesn't do what it said it would do.

Human Resources committee  Thank you. Thanks again for the opportunity to share our thoughts with you and have a bit of a dialogue after we present. I want to start with our thank you for the motion you took to the House of Commons on November 24, that the federal government develop an immediate plan to eliminate poverty in Canada.

Finance committee  I'm not a really good numbers person, but I think about a $3 billion investment annually is what we're looking for to build a universal child care system.

Finance committee  And it will pay off in the long term; eventually a bunch of other costs will fall off the table.

Finance committee  On early childhood development, young children require quality learning environments, care environments, and they are the same when you're young because early childhood education is in fact play-based if it's done well.

Finance committee  That would start at age three, but child care should be available early. There's infant child care so that families can work. If we can expand maternity and paternity leave, it would also be beneficial.

Finance committee  Child care at home is one way to do it. There are many different models.

Finance committee  Access to quality care, because often kids are left with a neighbour. If we don't have regulated quality child care spaces, what happens is that people leave their children with neighbours or they leave them at home. They need to work. We hear stories of people leaving food on heating vents to warm up because they're working their second shift in the hospital.

Finance committee  Yes, but it's very important.

Finance committee  Very dramatically. It's a very direct way to do it.

Finance committee  Yes, $5 billion per year would give us a child care system, and that would.... Are you talking about the Canada child tax benefit increase?