Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Yes, it's an awful lot more than that. And in fact those are only projects with Russia and the Ukraine, dealing mostly with oil and gas-firing, fugitive emissions and that kind of thing.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Yes.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  The total number I don't have handy with me at this point in time, and a lot of that is subject to discussion. Maybe Jos has those figures. I'm not sure. But they are growing, and growing quickly, that I do know. Do you have anything, Jos?

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  It's all up to the originator, so there is nothing to stop the Canadian government from designing such a system in such a way that in fact those kinds of things do not occur. On the other hand, if we're talking about needing to have more global engagement, more commitments by the global community, how do we get them engaged?

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Again, there's nothing to stop the Canadian government from developing a system that explicitly states whatever conditions it wants under which such trading would take place. So if it in fact is not comfortable having a carbon trading system with a country or a region within a country that has some suspect human rights issues, it has every means at its disposal to make that explicitly clear.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  In our negotiations, which are going on right now and are at a very critical part right now, the focus is the commitments that countries are going to be taking on after 2012. Canada, in defining what its commitment should be after 2012, can make some calculations based on investments that it's making now on carbon capture, on clean coal, on east-west, and make calculations that these will result in these kinds of reductions and that it will put us on this kind of emissions path.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Can I let Jos answer that first?

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  No, I think in addressing such a question you can't do it in a political or a policy vacuum. I'm from Edmonton, Alberta, and I know what that phrase represents. Call it anything but a carbon tax and maybe we can talk, but call it a carbon tax and it's just not constructive as far as the overall national dynamics of this country are concerned.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  I think it's one part of an overall menu that certainly should be promoted. I like standards in that respect, because they promote energy efficiency. Frankly, I just don't think that in North America we appreciate the extent to which we really are a pariah internationally, when compared to the rest of the world.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  To be absolutely honest, that's an issue of some debate, because on the one hand it was 12% intensity, and on the other hand, it was 45 megatonnes, and it was never clear where the final emphasis was going to land in terms of compliance. That wasn't completely sorted out. As far as other voluntary agreements are concerned, I think you're right, that the only one that we have in place right now is the one with the auto industry.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  There has been the suggestion, particularly out of France. President Chirac has talked about border tax adjustments. I would expect that in the post-2012 discussions there will definitely be a strong push by a number of countries to make the compliance provisions more effective during the post-2012 period and for the post-2012 period to include some trade provisions.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  As far as the compliance provision is concerned, I prefer to characterize it much like the government has characterized emissions trading and the technology investment fund in the notice of intent under the Clean Air Act: as a compliance provision. Under the Kyoto Protocol, that particular mechanism or flexibility provision allows countries, as I put it, to borrow from their future commitment periods.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  In which we are what?

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Not that I'm aware. I want to clarify that it's certainly not an international obligation that Canada or any constituency has to buy international credits to meet their targets. We have to find some means of trying to demonstrate what we're doing to meet our targets, but under no condition is a government obliged to take a certain route.

Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) committee  Thank you. It's a very interesting question and a very relevant question that you pose. There's one thing to point out as far as the China experience is concerned, which Jos has mentioned. The Chinese government has unilaterally suggested that it is going to set up a sustainability fund.