Public Accounts committee  The only comment I would make, Mr. Chair, is that I have many times over the course of my career, and I suspect over the coming course of my career, given advice to ministers that was not what they wanted to hear. And, frankly, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't be much use to them.

Public Accounts committee  No. Mr. Baker reports directly to the minister, or did at the time.

Public Accounts committee  Yes, although in this case if he made the decision he did and people didn't like it, there were enough people who knew. I assume somebody at the Treasury Board would have had something to say and ministers would have had something to say. It's perhaps overly simplistic, but I agree that in the end the deputy minister is the one who first decides whether or not to recommend the supplementary estimates.

Public Accounts committee  Mr. Chair, there has never been any issue related to the Firearms Centre that I'm aware of in the last 10 years that has not been controversial.

Public Accounts committee  I don't believe he was at any meeting that I chaired. It was Ms. Cartwright who was there and Mr. Wiersema, and their staff.

Public Accounts committee  First, Mr. Chairman, I would say I was coming in at the tail end of this issue, if you like, and I certainly knew there had been issues and people held views on both sides of that.

Public Accounts committee  I did not know his view personally. I'm not surprised to hear what it was because I knew there was...and I assume some of that was...although I believe the issue was first identified within the Firearms Centre and their financial people. I certainly was not surprised there was an issue, and indeed my goal in this--the reason to hold the meeting--was to make sure we had canvassed whatever options there were.

Public Accounts committee  It has to do with the fact that it's a portfolio. With respect to Public Safety--now it's Public Safety, but it was the Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness portfolio--there is a minister responsible for it, but there are at least six major organizations. Overall, it's 52,000 people and an over $5 billion budget, which is the largest civilian budget in government, but it's spread among a number of different agencies.

Public Accounts committee  No.

Public Accounts committee  Well, I think I've already answered that, Mr. Chairman.

Public Accounts committee  I ask for the ones I believe I need.

Public Accounts committee  Not just the accounting, but the whole issue, yes.

Public Accounts committee  No—or at any other time, for that matter.

Public Accounts committee  It was a complex issue. I didn't start by seeking legal advice; I started by asking those involved questions about what the issue was and why we were proposing change. It was after those discussions that I concluded that a legal opinion would be helpful. However, before asking for a legal opinion, I did talk with Mr.

Public Accounts committee  Not at that time. As I said, there may have been a brief discussion with the minister's chief of staff, just to the effect of whether all the options had been looked at.