Environment committee  And that is where they have to hire their lawyers and go through the process in court to establish that they were duly diligent; but in essence, they're on the hook, and if for whatever reason they're not able to show their due diligence, they will have a criminal record and a te

Environment committee  Kaity's fine, yes.

Environment committee  We're aware.

Environment committee  I think this came to fruition with the former Bill C-15, because the language in that bill amending the Migratory Birds Convention Act and CEPA was so absolutely specific to ships' captains and chief officers—basically those involved in shipping operations, directors, and officer

Environment committee  I'd have to be honest that it was not something I turned my mind to look at.

Environment committee  Right.

Environment committee  There is a consistency.

Environment committee  It's because of the way the language is put forward. It says the crown has to prove that the substance entered the water. So what the crown has to prove is that the act occurred. At that point, it captures a group of people who are now guilty until they can prove their due dilige

Environment committee  Yes, I'm aware, and I think the way we'd like to put this forward is that with Bill C-16 raising the penalties now to $6 million, with aggravated to $12 million on a strict liability basis, we're not arguing about this increase in penalties.

Environment committee  And I'll get to that. Our concern is that, given that we're increasing enforcement in that capacity and that we're allowing for very heavy fines, which—

Environment committee  No, under the Bill C-16 enforcement provisions.

Environment committee  I think I'm confusing the question.

Environment committee  If I may, when Bill C-15 became law on June 28, 2005, our group was very concerned. I was hired in July 2005. My mandate was that we had to work with government to try to encourage an amendment to what this bill brought about. Now, when I was hired, we had legal opinions telling

Environment committee  Yes, just briefly. Mr. Giaschi has not been retained on behalf of the International Ship-Owners Alliance or our community to speak on these issues. Our issues—

Environment committee  On behalf of CMLA, the Canadian Maritime Law Association.