Bill C-22 (Historical)

An Act respecting the mandatory reporting of Internet child pornography by persons who provide an Internet service

This enactment imposes reporting duties on persons who provide an Internet service to the public if they are advised of an Internet address where child pornography may be available to the public or if they have reasonable grounds to believe that their Internet service is being or has been used to commit a child pornography offence. This enactment makes it an offence to fail to comply with the reporting duties.

Protecting Children from Online Sexual Exploitation Act

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on a comment by my colleague from Elmwood--Transcona. I do not think I got a full and complete answer to his question.

The context of the member's speech talks about the international concept, the international context that this issue is becoming. He puts a great deal of emphasis on that.

However, we also have a couple of examples brought up by my colleague about the blocking of sites, which is really raising the bar when it comes to this sort of prosecution in this particular area.

On the idea of blocking sites with the examples of Sweden and Germany, what has the government done in that regard? Does it feel that this is a possibility once it reaches committee, that it could address that issue, especially through the ISPs?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, the bill will be going to committee if there is full support in the House, which I expect there will be.

Canada can create legislation that affects Canadian industry. We work with our international partners and we are being very effective with what we are doing here in Canada. However, the Internet is international. I think the figure I used is that there are over 750,000 pedophiles online at any given time. It is a worldwide problem and our children have access to that.

What we are doing with funding and legislation is to protect children. We also want to thank Cybertip.ca and the Canadian ISPs that are doing their part voluntarily. But this legislation will move it into a broader sphere where it will be required to be reported if there is any evidence that there is sexual exploitation of children going on, on their services. That legislation is needed and I count on every member to support it.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I am very surprised that the member from the Conservative side would not at least agree that the Conservative government would look at following Germany and Sweden to block these sites and would simply skate around the issue and talk about freedom of the Internet, and so on. When we are dealing with an issue such as this, it would seem very reasonable to me that the government would at least come forward and say, yes, if it works in Germany, if it works in Sweden, we will at least take a look at it in committee. I do not know why he would not say that.

My second question for him deals with the penalties. The member reiterated what they are for individuals: $1,000 for the first offence, $5,000 for the second, and the maximum of $10,000 or six months for a third offence. For corporations, we are talking about $10,000 for the first offence, $50,000 for the second, and $100,000 for the third.

The question is, given that these pornographic sites are largely run by criminal enterprises, does the member not agree that a $100,000 fine is nothing more than the cost of doing business and that these criminal organizations will be happy to pay the fines and keep operating the way they have in the past?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of questions there. I thought I did answer his question that we are working with our international partners, but we are creating Canadian legislation for Canada that will be effective for our Canadian children but will have benefits around the world.

Also, a lot has already been done. I mentioned the $71 million that the government is supporting for the funding of this to protect our children. I hope the member supported that $71 million.

As to what the committee can do, as we all know, standing committees within Parliament are their own masters and they can decide what they want to do with this legislation. If there are ways of improving it in terms of whether a fine of $100,000 for a corporation is adequate, we will let the committee decide. Some of us would think it is not enough, but again, that will be for the committee to decide. We trust that the committee members will do a good job, improve the legislation in any way it can be improved, and return it to the House in a speedy form so that it can go on to the Senate and receive royal assent.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, referring back to a question from the member for Elmwood—Transcona, he may not have been listening carefully to the speech of my colleague from Langley. He actually said that over 3,000 websites dealing in child pornography had been shut down in Canada. Therefore, we are blocking that.

I thank my colleague from Langley for intervening on this very important issue. The blocking of websites can be a challenge because they have to be identified and they have to ensure they are able to go after those carrying on in that way. Are we having a lot of success with that in Canada relative to the number of sites that are carrying this kind of objectionable material?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the short answer is, absolutely, we are having great success, but we have so much more to do. There is about a 90% success rate but the 10% is still a huge concern. As I said a moment ago, 750,000 pedophiles are online ready to attack and hurt our kids. We need to protect them against this.

There are a lot of people out there and, as a government, as a functioning Parliament, let us protect our children.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be participating in the debate regarding Bill C-22.

I will say at the outset that, as my colleague also said during the debate in June, we, the Liberals, support the goal of this bill. We will support this bill so that it can be sent to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

I would also like to mention that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Davenport.

I would like to talk a little bit about how this bill came to be.

The bill was first introduced in the House of Commons as Bill C-58 in the previous legislative session. When the Prime Minister decided to prorogue Parliament towards the end of 2009, he effectively killed the bill.

When Parliament resumed in March 2010, the government clearly did not see the bill as a high priority because it waited two months before it reintroduced Bill C-58 as what we know as Bill C-22. Then it sat on the order paper for more than a month before the government finally moved second reading. Debate in the House then could have begun in the month of June.

It is interesting that the government did not place as high a priority on the bill as it should have. This should have been the first bill reintroduced. It should have been the first bill to be moved at second reading. We could have had this bill to committee, possibly out of committee, back for report stage and third reading before we broke for the summer. All of that could have been done expeditiously.

I am happy the government has finally moved second reading on the bill and that debate is now happening. The Liberals will be supporting it.

This bill came out of the agreement reached at the meeting of federal, provincial and territorial ministers on the coming into force of reporting requirements for Internet service providers and online service providers with regard to child pornography.

Bill C-22, as I have already mentioned, is identical to the previous bill, Bill C-58. Under current Canadian law, distributing child pornography online is a criminal offence. When there are reasonable grounds to believe that child pornography is accessible through an Internet service provider, a judge can order the ISP to hand over information to the authorities. Judges can also order such content to be removed if the source can be identified.

The purpose of Bill C-22 is to fight child pornography on the Internet by requiring Internet service providers and others responsible for providing Internet related services to report incidents involving child pornography when they are advised of an address that makes such content available to the public or when they have reasonable grounds to believe that the Internet services they are managing are being used to transmit child pornography.

As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment said, Manitoba passed similar legislation in 2008 and Ontario in December 2008. The United States and Australia passed legislation in 2002 and 2005 respectively imposing such requirements on ISPs. Accordingly, Canada has fallen behind some of its international partners and friends, but the step this government is taking to finally modernize the parts of the Criminal Code that cover the production and distribution of child pornography is a step in the right direction.

As I was saying, the parties all agree when it comes to the need to address the exponential increase of child pornography available online. Statistics Canada indicates that illegal activity related to child pornography increased in Canada from 55 cases in 1998 to 1,408 cases in 2008.

A study conducted by Cybertip.ca revealed that nearly 60 countries were hosting child pornography. Canada hosts 9% of the world's child pornography sites, which is unacceptable. This puts us in third place, after the United States, which hosts 49% of these types of sites, and Russia, which hosts 20%. As many have already said in this House, that is truly unacceptable.

I will not repeat the percentages for pornographic images that involve children. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment provided this information today, and my fellow member of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights already gave them when he made his speech in June 2010. I will also not bother to speak about the fines. I think that topic will have to be studied, and we will have to hear from experts to determine whether the amounts of the fines in this bill are appropriate.

Perhaps we should consider increasing the fines that can be imposed.

The NDP member also brought up a point when he indicated that two countries, Germany and I believe Sweden, have implemented legislation to allow the government to block these sites completely. Are such measures possible here? Could the bill be amended to include such measures?

I think that the experts will be able to tell us whether this is possible in Canada, under our legal framework, because we do not have the same constitution as Germany or Sweden. We always want to ensure that our legislation is constitutional. The experts will be able to tell us whether blocking this type of site is possible under our Constitution and our legal and legislative framework.

I would like to speak about one last point before I conclude.

It is very difficult to determine where the images and websites are hosted, but they can be supported from different locations in the world. As such, oftentimes each photo and each site must be individually tracked, something highly difficult to achieve. Bill C-22 would go somewhere toward solving that, but there is more work to be done.

For one website depicting the sexual exploitation of children, Cybertip.ca tracked it for 48 hours, two days, and the site went through 212 different Internet addresses in 16 different countries. ISPs running the networks to which these computers are connected should be able to suspend service to these computers. This is another point at which the justice committee should look. I hope all members will support sending the bill to committee.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to welcome the member back to the justice committee. She does good work there. I think we have a collaborative committee that looks forward to dealing with the bill.

I want to refer to a comment made earlier today by the member for Elmwood—Transcona. He suggested that the fines to be imposed against corporations that violated the intent of the bill should be increased. This is not typically what we hear from the NDP. Those members typically oppose tougher sentencing laws, but somehow they have now seen the light, and I am glad to hear that.

Would the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine support the notion of perhaps even toughening up those fines to ensure that we get compliance and the protection that the bill seeks to improve for children in our society?

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I guess today is be kind and gentle and friendly to opponents. I congratulate the member for his re-election as chair to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and I was pleased for that. He has done a very good job as chair. I look forward to working with him and all colleagues from other parties on the justice committee.

I believe the issue of the level of fines should definitely be examined by justice committee members when and if the bill gets enough support from the House to send it to committee. A second area that should be looked at is whether the idea of blocking sites, as Germany does, is a possibility. If it is, is it something that could be added to the legislation? We know sometimes that we cannot go outside of the scope of the bill in committee, but there are a number of issues that the committee should look at and I look forward to that work.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that even the government members are indicating that we are losing ground on this issue, that the number of sites is increasing rather than decreasing. The member pointed out that the United States passed legislation similar to this in 2002, which is eight years ago. Yet only one year ago Cybertip.ca said that the U.S. still had 49.2% of all the sites in the world. Clearly this is not working and the government is proposing to throw another $42 million at the problem, a problem that is increasing.

Therefore, the issue is why do we not look at something that works? Why do we not look at what Germany is doing? Why do we not look at what Sweden is doing? We should not just close our eyes and say that we will fight it the same way the Americans are because clearly it does not work. It is getting worse.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have already stated that I would welcome the House sending Bill C-22 to committee. When the committee looks at the scope of the bill and at the fines that we find as two different ideas, it should also look at what is being done in other countries and what has been successful. The member mentioned the blocking of sites in Germany and Sweden. I do not know whether that could be done in Canada given our Constitution. That would require bringing in experts and I am open to that.

This is such an important issue that we want to ensure we get it right. We also want to ensure we go as far as we can with the technology that we have but respecting our Constitution and our charter.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-22. I think most of us in the House will agree that this is important legislation and an important tool for law enforcement officers to combat the criminal activities that are taking place by organized criminals who are preying upon our most vulnerable, the children of our society.

As legislators, we have an obligation, both domestically with our domestic law and as signatories to international conventions, such as the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which we signed back in 1989 and which came into effect in 1990, to ensure we are doing everything possible to protect children within our society. This is another piece of legislation that is an important tool to do so.

The issue of child pornography has taken on a new importance in this new computer age. We are moving, as we all know, at rapid speed in terms of the new technology being introduced and we need to ensure that the laws are being constantly updated to meet those challenges that are being posed to us by the new technologies being presented to us in society.

The sheer proliferation of child pornography on the Internet poses enormous challenges as well to the laws of enforcement.

Some statistics show that the U.S. accounts for almost 50% of child pornography host sites; Russia is second with about 20%; and Canada, which is a small country by population, is third and accounts for almost 10%. That is not something we should be very proud of. We, as a country, need to do everything possible to ensure that does not take place here in our country. We need to work with our international partners to ensure there are international conventions and tools in place to ensure, internationally, that there is a ban on the hosting of child pornography sites and that we are working collaboratively to stop this situation.

Law enforcement alone does not possess the resources needed to meet the challenges effectively, although their efforts are commendable, but they need those tools and this bill would do that.

We need to place some of this responsibility to combat this issue with Internet service providers. Internet service providers possess the means to assist in this way and they must be compelled to do so. We have heard in this House today several members mentioning that Germany and Sweden have done an excellent job of doing so. We in Canada can be leaders but we can also learn from our partners about how to provide effective tools to combat this.

It is for that reason that I join with my colleagues in supporting this important bill. It is truly distressing to see the large number of cases of child pornography charges being reported in the media. This, unfortunately, is only a small fraction of child pornography to be found on the Internet. More must be done and this bill is a significant step forward.

My community has been directly touched by the scourge of child pornography. On May 12, 2003, 10-year-old Holly Jones was abducted and murdered. Her killer was caught and confessed. He also confessed to being consumed by images of child pornography leading up to the day he abducted this beautiful innocent child. This is unquestionably a direct link between child pornography that this perpetrator viewed and his decision to take the precious life of this young child, Holly Jones.

In 2008, I introduced a bill entitled Bill C-388, which was designed to penalize those who shared child pornography. It is this kind of approach that must be adopted to give law enforcement agencies the tools they need to challenge effectively child pornography at all levels and on all fronts.

It was estimated in a 2003 study that 20% of all pornography traded over the Internet was child pornography, and we can assume that this number has increased since that study.

The United States department of justice noted that at any given time there are one million child pornography images on the Internet. Can anyone Imagine how many millions of images are being traded on a regular basis daily throughout the world? One million images of innocent children being victimized on the Internet.

In 2008, a review of the national laws across 187 nations showed that 93 countries still had no specific laws dealing with child pornography. This is totally unacceptable, and we in Canada must show leadership by putting in place laws that are effective and enforced. Effective laws and enforcement must be the basis on which we fight this scourge.

The law we are debating today would help us to assist law enforcement agencies by giving them an invaluable tool. Internet service providers must assume some level of responsibility for the information that moves through their systems. This laws makes Internet service providers part of the solution to this growing problem.

In fact, clause 4 states:

If a person who provides an Internet service to the public has reasonable grounds to believe that their Internet service is being or has been used to commit a child pornography offence, the person must notify an officer, constable or other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace of that fact, as soon as feasible and in accordance with the regulations.

Clause 5 goes further to state:

A person who makes a notification under section 4 must preserve all computer data related to the notification that is in their possession or control for 21 days after the day on which the notification is made.

The obligations and duties they must enforce is stated in the law.

I would remind the House that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child requires nations to take the necessary steps needed to combat child pornography. This proposed legislation is clearly a necessary step for us to take in this country.

However, we must remember why we are taking these steps. Children are the victims of child pornography. Innocent lives are devastated by this terrible crime. Psychiatrists speak to the shame and guilt these young victims experience and the profound impact this has on their lives. Most, if they survive, will spend their lives dealing with the fallout of the crimes that have been committed upon them. Their lives are forever diminished and, because of this, any society that does not take effective action is also diminished.

The nature of the Internet lends itself to ever-changing forms of abuse. We are all aware of the recent case in British Columbia where a young girl was assaulted by a group of men at a party. Having had to endure this terrible crime, she also had to deal with the posting of the video of the crime online. This is simply intolerable. The police are to be commended for their quick action in the case but they need help. They need the tools that will strengthen their arsenal for fighting this crime. This bill would ensure in law the responsibility of Internet service providers to be partners in this battle against child pornography.

The scope of this problem is truly astounding. Over the past three years, we have seen charges laid against thousands of people who cross every demography of society. The problem is widespread but there are ways to fight it. One such example is that of Toronto police detective, Paul Gillespie, who recognized the problem of anonymity on the Internet for those who traded in child pornography. He wrote to many organizations and groups, including Microsoft. The result was Microsoft developing a tool called the child exploitation tracking system that allowed police to track the activities of hundreds of child pornographers at one time. This reduced duplication of work and made enforcement much easier.

It is these kinds of initiatives that show we can effectively meet this challenge and that we are dedicated to finding a solution. It is for these reasons that I am proud to vote in favour of this bill. I encourage all members of the House to support this bill.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the United States has had laws similar to this since 2002 and in the eight years since then, the problem is getting bigger, not smaller. In fact as of 2009, the United States had 49% of the world's sites. The top five countries, that is, the United States, Russia, Canada, Japan and South Korea, have 87% of the sites, with 13% in the other 55 countries. The fact of the matter is that Germany and Sweden are not on the list because they effectively block the sites.

The government is spending even more money. It is putting another $42 million toward police resources to fight a problem that is getting bigger. I really do not see that as the answer.

The answer comes from looking at best practices. Obviously, the best practices are not in the United States, but in Germany and Sweden. I would ask the member whether he would agree with that analysis and that we should ask the government to look at the practices in those two countries.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague has made a valuable point.

This is just one tool, but an important one, for law enforcement officers to deal with this very important and troubling issue. He is absolutely right that we have to look at best practices in countries such as Germany and Sweden that have a better handle on dealing with this issue. As the member noted, their percentage is nowhere near that of Canada's. Canada is number three, which is very troubling.

Maybe we should be looking not just at resources for policing but also at making sure there is legislation in place that takes account of best practices in dealing with this very important issue. As he mentioned, the U.S. may have similar laws but it has not seen the results that Sweden and Germany have seen. We should be looking at those countries' best practices and implementing them in Canada.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask my colleague a question on the record, given the fact that he is sitting next to me, which is why I am bringing it up.

He touched upon one aspect in his speech about how the private sector and major corporations are involved given the fact that we are talking about major ISPs, Internet service providers. Some of them have gone to great lengths to seek out and quash this material and certainly seek out the people putting this material online and to prosecute them as quickly as possible. Could he touch upon that issue?

The tenor of his speech also illustrated one good point, which is that we tend to be falling behind. How far are we falling back on this issue compared to the international context?