Evidence of meeting #17 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was renewable.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roger Samson  Executive Director, Resource Efficient Agricultural Production (REAP) Canada
B. Todd Moser  Vice-President, Alternative Fuels, Rothsay
Mark Nantais  President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association
Gilles Morel  Director, Eastern Canada Division and National Office, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute
Gene Carrignan  Chair, National Fuels Committee, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute
Marc Toupin  Procedural Clerk
John Moffet  Director General, Legislation and Regulatory Affairs, Department of the Environment
Bruce McEwen  Chief, Fuels Section, Department of the Environment

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I have one question on this for Mr. Moffet.

I'm a farmer. I represent a large group of farmers. Here we're talking about fuel. By making this amendment here, when you start talking about the environmental and energy balance sheet, life-cycle analysis, social and environmental impact, can those be applied, if this is carried, to more aspects of our day-to-day lives than just fuel? If you guys want to use the Environmental Protection Act to start regulating more of our agriculture practices, would this then apply outside of the issue of fuel and mixing of fuel?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Legislation and Regulatory Affairs, Department of the Environment

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay, so we are still talking only about fuel.

If there any no other comments, I'll call the question.

(Amendment negatived) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

NDP-1. Alex, do you want to move it?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

I'd like to talk a little bit about this. Can I do that? I would just explain--

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Put it on the floor, and then you can start--

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

I move that Bill C-33 be amended in clause 2 by adding after line 40 on page 2 the following subclause (6.1), regarding section 140 of the act....

Do you want me to read through this, Mr. Chair?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

You can dispense. You don't need to read it in. Everybody has a copy.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Now, can I talk a little bit about why I want to do this?

I feel we have to exercise a precautionary principle. I think the compromise we can arrive at is that by adopting this bill, if we build in some checks.... What we're saying here is that the Governor in Council may make regulations in respect of biofuel production in Canada, and in particular shall within six months after this subsection comes into force make regulations. Then you'll see that the last amendment, the second one I have, is to have a review of this.

It's important.... We've discussed and we've heard from witnesses with regard to genetically modified grains. What I'm proposing is that we prohibit the use of genetically modified grains, oilseeds, or trees for biofuel production, except for those that are already in existence.

This is not just something on which we have received information from organizations that have been studying the aspect of health; this can be costly to farmers. It can be costly because of contamination. Farm Update, a document that was prepared in regard to genetically modified crops in Ontario, says that:

Contamination events can cost farmers and industry billions. For example: In 2006 and 2007, two unapproved GM rice varieties were found in 25 countries including Canada. The rice contaminated foundational seed in the U.S. and resulted in bans and restrictions on imports of U.S. produced rice. The rice was grown in U.S. field trials in 2001 but the U.S. government has not tracked the exact source of contamination. The Canadian Government now only approves a GM crop for growing if it is also approved for human consumption. This measure was taken after Starling corn, approved in the U.S. for animal feed but not for human safety, widely contaminated the world's food supply resulting in product recalls in an estimated $1 billion cost to the food industry.

That's just an example I use to show that by exercising precaution, we can move ahead in the industry, but let's not use the industry as a means of introducing more GM technology. Specifically I'd like to look at wheat. As you know, whether or not we agree on the marketing, we know we have a very good quality of wheat and durum that is renowned in the world. If we were to allow, for example, for the sake of expediency the introduction of a brand of wheat that is genetically modified for biodiesel, for ethanol, then the strong possibility exists, if we look at what has happened with rice in the United States, that the wheat we grow now for food consumption and production could be contaminated.

Then we can see the costs and we can see ourselves trying to catch up. That's the main reason for including proposed paragraph 140(2.1)(a). As for prohibiting the use of lands protected by federal legislation and other sensitive biodiverse lands and protecting biodiversity, we have to ensure...

Biodiversity...refers to the variability among living organisms. It includes diversity within species...and ecosystems.... Biodiversity is important for its intrinsic value, but also for the priceless ecosystem services that it provides, such as clean water, clean air, maintenance of critical nutrient cycles, flood control, pest control, pollination of crops, compounds for new medicines, and seeds for new crops.

This is taken from a document from Environment Canada; it's not some organization away out there trying to talk about this. It may look as if it doesn't say much, but it says that we do preserve our biodiversity in Canada as we advance in this industry, once again applying that precautionary principle.

Paragraph (d) is self-explanatory. I do not feel and my party does not feel we should be importing feedstock for the biofuel industry in Canada. We heard from witnesses--and the gentleman who talked about canola today felt we can sustain ourselves--that we can provide that feedstock for the biofuel industry in Canada.

If we don't have a clause that prohibits this, then we open up our industry to cheap fuel feedstock coming in, not only from the United States but from all other parts of the world. The southern hemisphere, where we have seen this, has contributed to devastating the agriculture industry and small farmers. This is vitally important. If we have a biofuel industry, let's get it off the ground correctly. Let's ensure our farmers benefit, because if we allow importation, that allows prices to go down because of competition with, for example, subsidized corn from the United States.

I think this is a very practical measure, and it's an integral part of my amendments.

I apologize for taking time. I want to make the point clear. I'm trying to be as concise as possible.

The whole idea of criteria for environmental sustainability of biofuel production in compliance with internationally recognized best practices is important as we embark upon this. I've just been reading a document from the OECD that we conform to international standards. We cannot be seen as a country going in our own direction, maybe following the lead of what's happening south of us and not respecting international standards.

There are concerns. They're saying it is more likely that land use constraints will limit the amount of new land that can be brought into production, leading to a food versus fuel debate. That's the other point we have to address as we look at the whole idea of conforming to international standards. We have to look at what they're saying at the OECD, for example. They're saying other conventional biofuel technologies typically delivered greenhouse gas reductions of less than 40% compared with our fossil fuel alternatives. When such impacts as soil acidification, fertilizer use, biodiversity, and loss of toxicity of agricultural pesticides are taken into account, the overall environmental impacts of ethanol and biodiesel can very easily exceed those of petrol and mineral diesel.

We've heard from Mr. Samson today on the reasons he wants us to be very cautious and wants this bill not to go forward. From the point of view of the environment, what we're proposing is not efficient. In the study he has done, the thick one that I read, the most efficient use for the environment are pellets for energy sources, for example.

We're going to do this, but as we do this, we have to try to meet and conform to international standards. That's why, by having this clause in the bill, we can do that.

Paragraph (f), the last point, is on establishing restrictions on the use of arable land in Canada for biofuel production. I think we could quite comfortably follow the Manitoba model where they've set aside, according to the natural resources minister I talked to, 10% of arable land for biofuels. In other words, farmers can benefit from that by growing crops that are not used for food production.

In conclusion, I will try to generate support, and I am sure everybody will unanimously vote for my amendment, just as there was a full house last night in the House when I was speaking.

Those are the concerns I have. They should be noted. We can do a good bill and introduce those amendments.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Mr. Lauzon first.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I appreciate my colleague's passion, but I'm just wondering if this isn't outside the scope of what this bill is trying to do. We're getting into trade issues, etc. I don't know who should answer that question, but is this outside the scope of what this bill is about?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Would any of the witnesses care to comment whether this is outside the scope of EPA?

Mr. Moffet.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, you're the one who decides that, and you've already allowed that by allowing the amendment to be brought to the floor.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Yes, it is in order. It was definitely written in order as an amendment. You're talking about policy, though.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

Yes, areas of countervailing. I think this is outside the realm of what this bill was really supposed to be about.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Moffet, do you have any comments?

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Legislation and Regulatory Affairs, Department of the Environment

John Moffet

Just on this general point, the bill that the government introduced amends certain regulatory authorities in division 4 of part 7 of CEPA. That division is focused on regulating fuel quality for the purpose of preventing or reducing air pollution, and I would draw your attention to subsection 140(2) of CEPA, which states that the Governor in Council may make a regulation under subsection 140(1) if the Governor in Council is of the opinion that the regulation could make a significant contribution to the prevention of, or reduction in, air pollution.

That's the focus of the existing statutory authority, and it is within that focus that the government's amendments are constrained. So the government's amendments remain within that focus of addressing fuel quality for the purpose of reducing air pollution, and their amendments address this at ensuring that we can address biofuels as well as other fuels, but they're strictly for that purpose of addressing fuel quality and air pollution.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Bellavance, and then Mr. Boshcoff.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I merely wanted to congratulate my colleague on his spirited defence. It was excellent. The problem with his amendment—and I would like the other parties in Parliament to lose this bad habit—is that it infringes on areas of provincial jurisdiction. Consider, for example, proposed paragraph (2.1)(c) which reads as follows: (c) preserving the biodiversity of lands used in biofuel production”.

I have to say that this amendment, like all of the others, is quite laudable. I don't disagree with the objective. However, the targeted area falls directly under the jurisdiction of the Commission de la protection du territoire agricole du Québec. It is not interested in having the federal government meddle in this area. For that reason, the Bloc Québécois will, unfortunately, not be able to support this amendment.

I simply wanted to make that clear. Colleagues may want to think twice in future about proposing measures that infringe on provincial jurisdiction, and especially on Quebec's jurisdiction.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Boshcoff, Mr. Easter, and then back to Mr. Atamanenko.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

I also really like the intent of the amendment. I think it reads well and it shows how smart Mr. Atamanenko is, and I'm grateful for it, because it has to be stated. I guess our issue is whether we put something in a bill that wouldn't help the bill.

I've heard the formal response, but I don't know if some of these things couldn't be more helpful in either a preamble or something like that, where we could see that the general direction would be to accommodate these things and reflect some of the things we have heard from the witnesses. So I'll thank the mover for that.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Easter.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Alex's amendments raise a number of points that are legitimate concerns. That's what you hear when you are in the country. The gentleman from REAP raised the issue this morning of whether there are more sensible ways of reducing greenhouse gases. So they are legitimate concerns.

There's certainly concern--I heard it in Saskatchewan last week--about cattle prices and where they're at. People are going into cattle, tearing up marginal land, and putting in higher-value crops. There are some concerns there, but as André says, they are more provincial jurisdictions.

I have a couple of questions for the witnesses.

Based on the points that Alex's amendment raises, on the inputs to ethanol itself—and maybe you can answer them and maybe you can't—what are the restrictions on corn coming in from the U.S.? We hear that American subsidized corn is coming into the Chatham plant in Ontario, and around 80% of the production base in that plant—I think it's around there, Larry—is coming from the United States.

Is there any way to prevent that? I know we can prevent it if it's considered dumping, but what are our protective measures there for our producers?

Second is the importation of ethanol from Brazil. In Brazil they're producing ethanol very cheaply from sugar cane. If a tanker of ethanol comes up the St. Lawrence--which is quite possible--do the subsidies that the government has in place apply to that ethanol? Could we be in a situation where we are subsidizing ethanol in Canada that was produced in Brazil?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Who wants that one?

Mr. McEwen.

February 26th, 2008 / 11:40 a.m.

Bruce McEwen Chief, Fuels Section, Department of the Environment

On the question of subsidies, currently an excise tax exemption exists for ethanol used as road fuel, regardless of where it comes from.

In last year's budget the government announced that it would be dropping that excise tax exemption effective April 1, and it would be replaced by what is called a producer incentive that goes to Canadian producers of renewable fuels.