Agriculture Committee on June 7th, 2010

[Kurt Shmon]

Yes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Being in dairy and livestock, I likely wouldn't buy it.

[Kurt Shmon]

You wouldn't, but as you said, you're a farmer, right? You have a farm background?

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I think that's what we're talking about.

[Kurt Shmon]

Yes. You admitted yourself that you're familiar with a farm background. How come... When canola would be five bucks a bushel, we'd look around the land and we'd all be planting canola. If your neighbour does it, you do it. It's just one of those things that can happen. Like I say, there's a small percentage of people in Canada who may benefit from this type of species, but the vast majority of Canadians do not.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Yes, Mr. Shipley.

Mr. Valeriote.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I have to go back, Kurt. Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but when you answered my first question, you said that the “contamination”, for lack of a better word, would come from the United States but would be minimal. Then in your response to Alex's question, it sounded to me like, regardless of the amount, it remains a high risk. I'm just wondering if you can embellish on that.

Because if it's going to come into our country anyway... This only keeps us from marketing it here in Canada because we're not addressing it in other regulations. Can you talk to me about that? I have another question, but can you talk to me briefly about that?

[Kurt Shmon]

Okay. Well, like I say, all three of us--and I think the vast majority of those who are opposed to it--are amazed, first off, that it was granted the release it was. Second, it's almost embarrassing to see that the CFIA or its Plant Biosafety can't admit that we've made a mistake in what we've done and can't just say, “Okay, hold it, we've learned from the United States, and we're going to step away from this”.

The idea is that it can come into Canada with a low-level presence, LLP, and there is a specific percentage they can have. If it gets shipped in, it is very likely going into the hay production. So under proper management... Like I say, there is the idea we could have a very small and minute percentage shipped into Canada. It could be here and it could just be constantly hayed and could be kept in check. The odds are... There's a possibility, but as I say, it's just hard to believe, with the weather conditions and everything. If it's here, it's going to escape.

We're hoping that if it does come here it remains in eastern Canada, where it's just going to be put under your intensive dairy operations and be mowed, where the hay will be conditioned properly and the plant will not be allowed to go to flower. Eastern Canada will have it scattered throughout the roadsides and ditches... If it does enter into western Canada, we will definitely be in trouble.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Okay. One of the witnesses last week also spoke about LLP. You've referenced it as well. I'm wondering if our efforts might not be better used in speaking to other countries and changing those tolerance levels, as opposed to trying to do something like this.

[Kurt Shmon]

That's market acceptance. It's market acceptance to have that LLP. But the CSGA has been at it for 10 years. We saw Europe turn around and shut the doors on soya meal, which they required for their producers.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Let me ask you the following, only because I'm running out of time; I don't mean to cut you short. The WTO and NAFTA trade agreements require that standards for new technologies be based on scientific evaluation and scientific principles. What would be the implication for Canada's WTO and NAFTA obligations of adding non-scientific criteria into the approval process for new GE seed? How would we fare there? Would there not be a push-back?

Jim, Kurt, or Kelvin?

[Jim Lintott]

One of the questions I would throw back at you, which I've been trying to find the answer to, is this one: how is this working in Argentina? They have this type of criterion in their regulatory system. I'm surprised that I have not been able to find the answer of how this actually functions in Argentina.

It's not weighted as heavily as some of the other criteria they have, but it's certainly a part of their regulatory system. Obviously it works. Argentina is the third-largest producer of GMO crops in the world, and it works.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Valeriote and I are going to share our time.

I wonder just on that point of Jim's if we could ask our research staff to look into that and find the details on the Argentinian situation. We wondered about that ourselves.

I know that Alex isn't as neutral as the parliamentary research bureau, but we'll have a look at yours, too, Alex.

I will just come back to the point Randy made earlier, which was that the market will control us.

Randy, I really don't think that's necessarily the case, because what we're dealing with here, especially in alfalfa, is that if we find the market doesn't want the product and it's already within our gene pool and starts to spread, we're done. This is a mistake you can't allow to happen.

If we're shut out of a market, the market will control it, all right, but if this were to get approved without proper scrutiny, then we'd be out of the market. We would lose the markets for what I think you said is some $20 million that's there at the moment and could potentially grow.

We have a fairly substantial market in Prince Edward Island for non-GMO crops. I can tell you how fussy the Japanese are. They come over and tour our fields. They see if there are any other GMO crops--other crops, not the same crops--within a few miles, and not just feet, of that particular crop that's growing for the market in Japan. It doesn't even have to be the same species. It could be blueberries. It could be strawberries. It could be canola. We grow non-GMO canola.

Could you comment on that? This isn't as simple saying the market will control it out there in the big wild blue yonder.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Very quickly, Jim, please.

[Jim Lintott]

Earlier on, my point was that forages are different from annuals. You can't compare them directly. That's the issue there. If you understand the simple science that makes those two crops very different and the huge issue that creates for forages in terms of controlling gene flow, then you understand where the concern comes from.

All the other issues, I think, are similar, but it's the control of the gene flow that is the huge issue in any forage type, and the fact that they exist in the feral populations throughout our communities, in our parks, on our roadsides, everywhere. That's what separates it out.

At the end of the day, we've proven that we do not have a regulatory system in place to control the straight economic desires of the corporations. The problem is that we're constantly going to be subjected to their economic desires and not ours.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Storseth, you have five minutes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the witnesses for coming today. I may not agree with all the assertions that you put forward, but it's certainly an interesting discussion to have nonetheless.

I have a couple of questions for you, and then I'll pass the remainder of my time on to Mr. Hoback so he can finish up his round of questions.

First of all, Mr. Lintott, I noticed that Mr. Atamanenko's staff passed you some information. Is there anything there that would be helpful for us to have tabled so we can have that information ourselves?

[Jim Lintott]

Yes. This is the information that has been found out to date in terms of how the process works in Argentina, in terms of how they deal with market access.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

So we'll get that anyway--perfect.

I'll ask all of you. I guess I shouldn't assume, so that's why I'm asking you. Your main clients would be organic producers. No? Are they pretty spread out? Is it fifty-fifty, sixty-forty...?

[Kurt Shmon]

I'm probably 5% organic production, with the opportunity for it to grow. We started at zero in 2008, have grown to 5%, and also have the opportunity to grow that market share, but I'm mainly conventional.

[Jim Lintott]

I think in all marketplaces you will find that organic is around 5%, 10%, and 15% and growing.

The rate of growth is probably the most important point. On that 19% annual growth, if we did that in the canola industry, we'd run out of acres in two years.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

And do you see that continuing?

[Jim Lintott]

Well, it won't continue forever. That's obvious. But the interesting part of this growth factor is that it's the consumer voting with his dollar, and that's a very powerful thing. Those are the guys who elect the people in this room.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Well, the interesting part of that thing is that the people they elect in the room are traditionally Conservatives, who don't have the same position as you on this, so...

I just have one other quick question for Kelvin before I hand it over to Mr. Hoback. Much earlier, you talked about yield. Did I hear you say that you didn't believe that GMO enhanced the yield?