Evidence of meeting #43 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Chloé O'Shaughnessy
Humphrey Banack  Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Allen Oberg  Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Gordon Bacon  Chief Executive Officer, Pulse Canada
Greg Cherewyk  Executive Director, Pulse Canada

9:30 a.m.

Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Humphrey Banack

Yes. I guess part of what we looked at is the Kroeger study that was done in 1999 and 2000. At the end of it, the group recommended that a review be undertaken of “productivity gains and sharing of these gains...at a point in time when it is felt that most of the overall changes to the System...had likely occurred”.

We believe that there have been a large number of changes within the system, such as the ability for railways to group lots of cars together. We're seeing 110-unit train cars that we never saw in 2000. We're seeing efficiencies in locomotive diesel usage and labour. We're not pulling cabooses around the country anymore. These efficiencies have occurred. The Kroeger report said that we should have a review of those rates after efficiencies occurred.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Humphrey, with the numbers of elevators that have closed—I think you said that over 1,000 have closed and you're down to 240 elevators—is it correct that in fact the farm community and the provincial transportation system, which actually taxes for highways, so that's the average taxpayer...is it mainly the farmer who is picking up additional costs while the railways are making the gains from those efficiencies?

Your figures—and I think Allen, you mentioned these—are that it's costing you $6.87 a tonne too much over that two-year period.

9:30 a.m.

Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Allen Oberg

Yes, that's right.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

So clearly, the bottom line is that the railways are gouging the farm community, and the government, for whatever reason, is not forcing the railways to comply with the original intent of the changes.

9:30 a.m.

Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Allen Oberg

There's really no mechanism there for those efficiency gains to be passed back to farmers. In the previous system, where we had regular costing reviews, the railways were allowed to keep those efficiencies for four years. Then there would be a costing review and those efficiencies would be passed back to farmers by a new rate scale. But since we've had the revenue cap, there is no mechanism--

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Your intent is that this costing review would in effect do that.

9:30 a.m.

Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Allen Oberg

That's right.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Easter, your time has expired.

Mr. Bellavance, for seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Oberg, my questions are for you. First of all, the Canadian Wheat Board recently conducted some studies to determine how much railway companies make from handling grain and grain products. You did that for 2007-2008 and also for 2008-2009. The study shows that CN and CP made some hefty profits. No one is opposed to profitable railways. However, those profits should not be made at the expense of grain producers.

In 2007-2008, the firm that you dealt with evaluated profits at $221.7 million. For the 2008-2009 crop year, it was $383.5 million. You have shown us something interesting as well: that is a huge increase in revenue which is capped at 20% and which was deemed fair, equitable and acceptable under the Western Grain Transportation Act.

As I was saying, the idea is not to prevent the railways from being profitable; it is to ensure that agricultural producers are not the ones bearing the brunt of these staggering profits. And the 20% revenue cap has clearly been exceeded.

Mr. Oberg and Mr. Banack, you added your signatures to the letter sent by the Canadian Federation of Agriculture to Prime Minister Harper on this specific issue. Did you receive a reply from Mr. Harper to the letter written on June 30, 2010? If so, what was his reply?

9:35 a.m.

Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Allen Oberg

We have raised the issue of a costing review with a number of elected officials. Minister Ritz initially was supportive. We have also met with Minister Strahl. His answer was that “when you get support from Minister Ritz perhaps we can look at a costing review“, but the answer has always been to wait until the service review is completed.

As to your specific question as to the reply from Prime Minister Harper, I'm unaware of what that reply said.

9:35 a.m.

Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Humphrey Banack

I'm not sure of any reply from Prime Minister Harper either. I know that we did receive a reply from Minister Ritz and Minister Cannon, before Minister Strahl's time. Their answer was that they'd look at the possibility of conducting a review after the service review was complete. That's my best recollection of how this all turned out.

The commitment was that after the service review was complete they would consider looking at a costing review. That's why we're here today: to push that consideration forward.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

So they considered the possibility of doing so, but no commitment was made. I would like some additional details, Mr. Oberg. You talked about a complete cost review. The Canadian Wheat Board has already conducted a rather interesting study, which I addressed earlier in my preamble.

What are you looking for more specifically that you did not find in your own study, which was conducted by an independent firm? You are talking about a cost review, and you are asking for the government to get involved. What will that add to what you already have in your study?

9:35 a.m.

Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Allen Oberg

A costing review would certainly reveal whether our numbers are reasonable or correct. We believe they are. This is the second time we've had Mr. Edsforth look at rail costing. This last report is actually an update of that. That's something a costing review would certainly reveal.

It seems that the railways don't want regulation, but they don't want competition either. As Mr. Banack said, back in 2000, in the Kroeger report, it was hoped that competitive factors would bring those efficiencies back to farmers. But when a competitive issue was brought forward for common running rights so that another carrier could provide competition on major rail lines, the railways lobbied against it. In fact, there was an application made to the CTA to allow for that and it was dismissed.

So in the absence of competitive factors, the only way to drive those efficiencies back to farmers is through regulation. A costing review would certainly achieve that.

9:40 a.m.

Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Humphrey Banack

Further to that, the Edsforth studies provide what we believe is one side of the story. The costing review will allow a full telling of the story and will allow the railroads to step forward and put their side forward. This is viewed as a farmer-based study and, truly, it is: it's commissioned by farmers for western Canadian grain farmers. The full costing review will allow a full review of the whole system. The railroad will have its chance to justify its side of the equation. That's where we're at.

Can we guarantee that we're going to see a difference in cost of $6.81? To be quite frank, no, we can't. That's where a full costing review is very important. I guess we're taking a long crapshoot of a look at things here. This may go against us. There is a possibility that this could come to a point in time where we may pay higher freight rates. But it is an approach that we are willing to take as western Canadian grain farmers, because, like I said, we want a full costing review, and we believe the full costing review will allow both sides to tell the entire story.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You have 30 seconds, André.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

In your view, should the Western Grain Transportation Act be amended, or is it just that no one is doing the cost reviews as in the past? Should that be implemented or should the act be changed outright?

9:40 a.m.

Member, National Council, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Allen Oberg

I think the legislation should be amended so that there would be regular costing reviews as part of the revenue cap formula.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Okay,

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you.

Mr. Atamanenko, you have seven minutes.

December 9th, 2010 / 9:40 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Gentlemen, I'll ask one question. Then I have a couple of points and I'd like your comments.

It would seem to me, if my understanding is correct, that right now when the railways don't deliver, the farmer is penalized. Due to unreliable service, you folks lost something like $14 million because of everything that has to happen when that car isn't there. It's my understanding that the railways are not penalized if they don't deliver. Is that correct?

Would an immediate answer to part of the problem, then, be a reciprocal agreement, such that if the railway said it would deliver a car at a certain point in time and didn't, it would be penalized? In effect, one would hope that this would spur them to be more efficient. That's my first question.

I have a couple of communiqués from the National Farmers Union. In May of this year, one said that the major railways collect approximately $1 billion in freight charges from farmers, yet the CTA has announced its approval of a 7% increase in the volume-related composite price index. So they're making this money, they've applied for a 7% increase, and they got it. At the same time, they're not becoming more efficient and you folks are paying out of pocket. I just wanted to comment on that.

The other thing is that it's not only the farmers who are having problems with these folks. I have a letter from the Forest Products Association of Canada. They say that for many years the forest products industry and other commodity shippers have endured poor service and high freight rates while awaiting legislative action to address the lack of competition in Canada's rail freight transportation system.

Then they refer to the panel's interim report, released on October 22, which contains a recommendation that the government delay any legislative or regulatory remedies until after 2013, at which time the government should undertake yet another assessment of the state of rail service in Canada, and after that assessment is complete, only then should any recommendations for regulatory change be considered. I think you alluded to that, Greg or Gordon, in your statement.

I would like some comments on those points, if you wouldn't mind.

9:40 a.m.

Executive Director, Pulse Canada

Greg Cherewyk

To your first point on reciprocal penalties, I'll speak for a minute on the view of the Coalition of Rail Shippers. We're a member of that coalition. I'm not representing them today, but I want to tell you about some of the core principles that we put forward to the panel.

One was that there needs to be some form of a standard applied to service. They need to be performing according to a certain standard. If you're going to perform against a standard, you have to be measured against your effectiveness at delivering according to that standard. There's really no point in measuring for measurement's sake. We need to hold each other accountable for actually performing, and that comes through the form of a consequence for non-performance. Finally, we must have an agreed-upon, effective, and inexpensive dispute resolution mechanism.

But the key point was to be held accountable for performing at a level of service, by establishing consequences for non-performance, or what you called a penalty or a reciprocal penalty. This is a core principle that we put forward as a coalition. It's something that we as an industry association built into the concept and the solution that we put forward to the panel--absolutely.

The prop I usually have with me is a CP manual that shows 22 pages of what we call “behaviour modification tools”. There's an action that every shipper must take, and if they don't take it, there's a charge associated with it. We're not asking for a reduction or an elimination of those charges; we're simply saying there has to be balance. If you commit to providing 10 cars on Tuesday the week before that Tuesday and you don't, and you don't provide advance notification, what is the consequence for not performing? And yes, there should be a financial consequence for non-performance.

To your second point, we, as well as the panel, have made the point that under current conditions, in an environment that lacks competition, the railways will ultimately focus on asset control or asset utilization and cost control to the detriment of providing good service. That really is the crux of the issue. We are not going to get anywhere until we address this fundamental problem. The panel concluded that the fundamental problem is lack of competition--it's market power--yet it does nothing to address that fundamental problem.

So yes, the panel must recommend and the government must act on that conclusion. If there is a lack of competition and there is no feasible way of increasing competition in rail freight service, we must address it by putting in place a policy framework that compels them to put service on the same plane as cost control and asset utilization.

On your last point about the Forest Products Association's letter to you and the reference to a review in 2013, that is the second part of the panel's conclusions that we take exception to. The first one was that nothing should be done: that they sure hope everybody gets along over the next little while and that at some point in the future someone else should come back and take a look at this. Also, they put forward a fairly ill-defined framework for a review in 2013, which government should look at to try to measure progress towards the objectives that we all have for improvements.

This process bothers us for a couple of reasons. One is that it's a point-in-time review. Anybody in the business community can understand the failures of a point-in-time review of progress. If Gordon told me he was going to appraise my performance next year and that if I did well according to certain criteria, I would never be subject to a performance appraisal again, I can tell you that my performance would suffer the year after. This is the type of thing we're worried about. There's nothing in place that puts forward some certainty for the business community beyond 2013 if you simply measure its ability to improve performance up to that point.

Second, if you're going to establish a review in 2013, it would seem logical that you put in place the system that will measure performance up to that point, yet they've recommended that the railways themselves monitor and measure their own performance and report on it. So we're putting the responsibility for measuring performance into the hands of those who are subjects of the measurement, which is another problem.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Do you have any comments, Humphrey?

9:45 a.m.

Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Humphrey Banack

I'll make a quick comment.

I believe the western farm organizations are all members of the shippers' coalition--the Wheat Board is for sure--and we do support the rail costing and rail service review being done and the recommendations that are coming forward. We need to move this forward and we need regulation to do it.

Regarding the penalty-reward system being proposed here for the railways for good and bad service, we have to remember very carefully that the CTA, in its revenue cap, states that the revenue cap does not include “amounts paid by railway[s] as a performance penalty”. So if we put charges on the railways for non-performance, the revenue cap will not change; they're still going to get the same kind of money.

In the end, it's western Canadian farmers who will be paying those dollars. Is it just going to go from one pocket to the other? Are we just going to be saying yes, we're getting something back, but...? It's much like the freight rate incentives used to buy multi-car blocks today for dispatch by them.

We have to have regulation and we have to have work on both sides to move this forward properly.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Just before we move on, Greg, if I could, I'll get you to enlarge on something.

You were talking about seven days. Let's say you got told on Friday the tenth that there were supposed to be 10 cars there on the seventeenth. I can agree with and understand the fact that there has to be some kind of accountability and compensation if the railways don't have those cars there, but realistically, would it not be fair to say that they intend to have them there seven days in advance, but they give you maybe 24 hours, at the very least, if there is a problem...? Being a farmer, I know what it's like. Not everything runs on time all of the time, but it needs to run on time most of the time.

Could you comment on that? If you gave them a minimum of 24 hours, so that at noon on the Thursday they let you know, is that workable? Is that something that your two groups are willing to accept?

9:50 a.m.

Executive Director, Pulse Canada

Greg Cherewyk

One of things that we put forward in our proposal was that you would provide a commitment to deliver cars on a specific day. There were two measures: the number of cars you committed, and the day. You would be held accountable for providing the cars that you committed to provide on the day you committed to provide them.

We also built in a separate measure that said there's a mean time to inform, so you must provide advance notice for any change to that plan. There would be a scale: if you provide advance notice 72 hours in advance, perhaps no penalty applies; if you provide it within 48 to 71 hours, one credit applies.

There's a sliding scale of consequences as you get closer and closer to the date, because as you get closer and closer, the cost for the shipper--from having grain spotted, from having bin space allocated to a certain crop--goes up, right? So yes, of course there's a way to look at being realistic about the realities of providing rail freight service--predictable rail freight service.

But I want to remind everybody that at the end of the day the contract the shipper has to meet doesn't provide for those kind of allowances. Customers don't get to say, “I understand you had problems with allocation of rail equipment” or “I understand you had a blizzard” or “I understand you had heavy rains”. They don't get to say, “I understand that the railways' transit time is excessively variable and that led to congestion at the port, and geez, I understand that transloaders were embargoed”. No, none of that happens. On the contract, the only thing that you're allowed lenience on is a strike.