Canada-China Relations Committee on April 8th, 2024

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Minister, I'd like to ask you a question.

In a highly secure lab like the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg, when you make up the list of organizations a scientist is associated with, is it simply based on voluntary reporting or is there some sort of security screening?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

It's not voluntary; people are required to report all interactions and all the work they have done. It's mandatory.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

From what you're telling me, Mr. Minister, I understand that we rely on the person's word and that we don't call on our intelligence service to verify that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Yes. That's changing.

At the outset, especially in the case of an individual who is really well known, who has worked for the Government of Canada for a long time, it's their responsibility as a Canadian citizen to reaffirm their commitment, among other things. However, for new employees, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and CSIS check personal data, security clearance, relationships and that sort of thing. That's done as well.

However, in that environment, and particularly at that time, it was possible to lie and create the conditions to spread misinformation. That's how things were. We're now working very hard to make sure we batten down all the hatches.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We'll now go to Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Minister, I want to turn now to a question of opinion that is likely to form a question of policy in your mind as a minister. I think many Canadians want to understand what you think about particular issues as they relate to decisions of today. How important is security, communication and audit and evaluation work for your department?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

It was and is essential. I think every time a nefarious actor behaves in an unthinkable way, you learn. That certainly happened here. The behaviour of these two individuals created process improvements to ensure that similar actions couldn't be undertaken in a contemporary context.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You'd say that it's very important.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

It's essential.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's essential, but your department plan as of February 29, 2024, indicates that you'll be cutting these three areas. As it relates to the Winnipeg incident, I think it's quite irresponsible to be making financial cuts in this area.

Can you describe why your department has tabled plans to make significant cuts to these three programs?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I'm not aware of any cuts, so I—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's in your departmental plans. Have you read your departmental plans you tabled on—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Yes, I have, but I'm not aware of any cuts.

Madam Jeffrey.

[Heather Jeffrey]

We're not making any reductions to our security expenditures except for those related to the oversized nature of our pandemic response. Of course, our departmental estimates are coming down off that peak, but we in fact are making new investments in cybersecurity, IT restructuring and our security.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

To clarify, you're saying that—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

To colour that, because it's important, I didn't understand—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes, please clarify.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

You could imagine that during the pandemic, the Public Health Agency was scaled up radically to meet the demands of the pandemic—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you mean for the areas of security, communication and audit evaluation?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

It was for every aspect, because you can imagine that the number of employees we had was vastly larger. For example, if you have to run security checks for a much larger workforce, there will be increased costs. If you have a smaller workforce, you'll have less need for security. Any reductions in security have nothing to do with a reduction in security; they have to do with a scaling back of the workforce, moving into a postpandemic period.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What level did you return it to, then?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

We're above prepandemic levels, 2019 levels, and we're making continued investments to go beyond that, some of which I look forward to talking about in the coming days. We're above where we were prior to the pandemic.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

In terms of judging how you allocate resources particular to these areas, in light of the Winnipeg incident, how do you justify, or not, the increase?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I think the investments have been appropriate, and they continue. There are, across the spectrum of health, unbelievable needs. Every moment you take from one area, you have to give to another, and there's a limit to what you can do fiscally.

I would say the increased investments we've made in security and in the protection of our facilities are extremely important, and we will continue to make the investments needed to—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

The cuts were COVID-related, though, to summarize.