Canada-China Relations Committee on April 8th, 2024

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Exactly, yes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Dr. Ellis, the final five minutes are yours.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, Minister.

Back in 2017, Minister, the United States raised questions about the Chinese Ministry of Defence's Academy of Military Medical Sciences and its Institute of Microbiology and Epidemiology, saying that they were a risk of potential biological weapon capabilities. Doesn't that fly in the face of you saying that we had a great relationship with China then?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I don't recall saying we had a great relationship. I said there were at that point in time emergent concerns around the way in which China was engaging internationally. There were some early warning signals that things were beginning to turn in a bad way. However, the management of risk—particularly when we're talking about deadly pathogens, trying to find answers and thinking that you would try to use information around therapies and vaccines for some sort of geopolitical military purpose—was a different dimension at that moment in time.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Realistically, Minister, clearly the United States identified that they were talking about a small-scale offensive biological weapons program—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

At that moment in time—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You've talked a lot about Ebola. When you think about it, wouldn't you use Ebola to do that? Wouldn't that be a great pathogen to do it with?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No, actually. What I would say is that the international co-operation—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

No [Inaudible—Editor], is that what you're saying?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

You're not letting me finish my sentence. What I'm saying is—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You're not answering the question.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I'm attempting to answer it.

What I'm saying is that international collaboration at that moment in time was with respect to Ebola and any number of other pathogens happening on the international stage. China represents a billion people. It has an enormous wealth of knowledge and information—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I don't need to know about China—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No, but we wanted them to be part of that solution.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Don't you think that this is dangerous?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I think it's dangerous to give up on collaboration with a billion people. Unfortunately, we had to do that because the threat environment evolved.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Even though we have scientists sending a potentially weaponized virus to a power that's going to make biological weapons, clearly you think that's okay.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No. I think Ebola exists today as a deadly pathogen.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Is that okay with you or is it not?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Ebola exists and is easily found. There are outbreaks all over the world.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

No, that's not true, Minister, because do you know what?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Well, there are outbreaks all over the world, and—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

They didn't have it.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—China's objective was to—