Canadian Heritage Committee on April 11th, 2007

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I mean the funding.

[Louis Paquin]

I think cuts to funding from CBC in the regions just happened. They cut it in Montreal and in the regions as well.

My argument has always been that you have twenty cards and I have one card, so let's each cut ourselves one card. We both lose a card, but you still have nineteen cards.

We're cutting both ways, but at the same time you have to understand the impact of what has happened. In the seventies and eighties we had seven directors doing dramas and variety. We had a strong community, and they all left. The signal was that there was no future here. Radio-Canada is the only one that has a mandate and is established in the regions. These people care about us, but once there was no more work, that was the signal, and it should not happen again.

Either we're in this country for the long term or we're not. Sometimes you go to Quebec and they think it's a lost cause. So if on top of that the policies don't say we're in it for the long term, they have to change their mindset. Otherwise you say we cut over there.... If they're already convinced we're a lost cause, they'll say “Let's not invest over there”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for your testimony this afternoon and your great answers to the questions that were put forward.

I have tried to make up some of the time, since we were a little late starting. We'll take a recess and then go to our next witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I call the meeting to order.

I welcome Ms. Todd as our last witness. I see you've kept one of our previous witnesses with you. I welcome him back.

Ms. Bourgeois had to catch her plane, so she won't be here, but there are still four of us around the table. Your transcript will be relayed to those who aren't here and the other people who are on the committee.

If you'd like to make your presentation, please start.

[Kim Todd, Chairperson, Manitoba Motion Picture Industry Association]

Thank you very much.

The Manitoba Motion Picture Industry Association, known as MMPIA, welcomes the House of Commons standing committee to Winnipeg. We're happy to provide you with our comments for your study on the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century, and we're very happy to do it in our hometown, with the sun shining.

MMPIA was founded in 1987 as a non-profit association to represent the interests of the independent film and television production industry in Manitoba. At that time, the industry's annual production was under $1 million. Today, production levels are over $100 million. An estimated 1,000 Manitobans work directly in the industry, covering feature films, new media, and television. MMPIA has grown from a few dozen to 350 members, including individuals, production companies, labour groups, distributors, broadcasters, suppliers, and exhibitors. In all, MMPIA represents 1,400 individuals, including members of the Franco-Manitoban and aboriginal communities.

MMPIA's role as the industry's advocate is augmented by its development programs designed to build Manitoba companies and the Manitoba industry. It creates economic impact studies, celebrates the industry through our biannual Blizzard Awards, which of course are held in February, and also serves as an information hub.

We are proud of our accomplishments. We are appreciative of the strong support we receive from the rest of Manitoba, the provincial and city governments and the people. A big part of our success is due to the pride Manitobans take in their province and the generosity with which they share their homes, their streets, and their natural surroundings with our production teams.

Together we have produced such Manitoba stories as Cowboys and Indians: the J.J. Harper Story, A Bear Named Winnie, and the Royal Winnipeg Ballet's Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary, all for the CBC. We did Elijah and the documentary Brawl for CTV in the last year. The Global series Falcon Beach is produced and set in Manitoba. The features Niagara Motel, Guy Maddin's Saddest Music in the World, and the Oscar-award-winning Capote show the range from that part of the industry.

Manitoba has played its part in the shaping of Canadian broadcasting. It is the home of the Asper family and their CanWest empire, and of the Craig family who built A-Channel. APTN was founded and is located here. The Moffatt family started CKY and founded the Women's Network in Winnipeg. CBC leaders Peter Herrndorf, Slawko Klymkiw, Diana Swain, and Jane Chalmers all began their careers here. The Manitoba news show 24 Hours was CBC's top-rated regional news show for many years.

During the preparation of this submission, we were reminded that our members have passionate opinions about the role of the public broadcaster and the recent performance of CBC. Their expectations are high.

First, the CBC needs adequate public funding. The MMPIA membership believes that a public broadcaster is essential to the cultural and political health of the country and that it should be funded by the government in such a way that it can fulfill its mandate. There are many things to praise in the history of the CBC, but this submission is about its role in the 21st century, and we'll focus on that.

There is deep concern that reduced public funding, cost increases, and audience fragmentation have eroded CBC's ability to fulfill its mandate. There is also concern that its priorities and vision are skewed by its quest for advertising dollars because CBC television--English television throughout, please--is forced to depend on earned revenue for more than half of its annual funding. We respectfully suggest that Canada needs to decide if it wants a public broadcaster or not, and that at present, in spite of valiant efforts on the part of many CBC employees, it has a hybrid organization that is successful neither as a public broadcaster nor as a commercial network.

As the CFTPA notes in its brief to this committee, Canada's funding of the CBC puts it in sixteenth place of eighteen public broadcasters in the western world, at $33 per Canadian as compared to the average of $80 per person.

We do not believe publicly financed funding of the CBC should necessarily include a guaranteed portion of the Canadian Television Fund. The arrangement whereby the CBC receives 37% of the CTF seems to be a half measure, offering the CBC some compensation for the lack of government support but at a cost to the private sector and to independent producers, for whom the CTF was created.

In terms of the CBC's audience and its vision, adequate public funding is only the first step toward a strong Canadian public broadcaster. For the CBC to be able to fulfill its mandate to be distinctively Canadian, to reflect Canada's regions, and to contribute to the flow and exchange of cultural expression, it has to identify its specific audience and then create programs that engage and entertain that audience.

Much has been made of the negative effects of the fragmentation of the television audience, but niche broadcasters, such as HBO in America, have been successful by serving a smaller but loyal audience with bold, distinct programming. The CBC's mandate does not say it should attract more audience than the latest American hit; it says it should be providing a Canadian alternative to it.

Public broadcasters such as PBS recognize their roles in serving as a community resource. They describe themselves this way: “A trusted community resource, PBS uses the power of non-commercial television, the Internet, and other media to enrich the lives of all Americans through quality programs and education services that inform, inspire, and delight.”

The BBC states its purpose as follows: “The BBC exists to enrich people's lives with great programmes and services that inform, educate, and entertain.”

MMPIA looks forward to a CBC with resources that make it able to partner with independent producers across Canada to create innovative entertainment in the areas of drama, documentary, arts, sports, and news. Together we will provide unique Canadian programs and build an audience for them.

In terms of the regions, the CBC mandate states that the CBC seeks to “reflect Canada and its regions to national and regional audiences, while serving the special needs of those regions”. We suggest this should instead be “to reflect Canada through its regions to national and regional audiences”.

The CBC can serve its mandate and the public by partnering with independent producers to create local programming in the regions. News, documentaries, arts, and drama can be produced locally and run locally or nationally.

We suggest the CBC commit 20 hours a week to local programming on each of its stations. A genuine partnership between producers and local CBC offices would offer regional audiences unique programming and involvement with their public broadcaster. Consider the model that is CBC radio and its strength in the regions. MMPIA suggests bringing the CBC home to its constituents, back to its roots.

We commend the CBC on the series Little Mosque on the Prairie, but regret that this show--created by a Regina writer and production company, set in Saskatchewan, and originally filmed in Saskatchewan--was moved to Hamilton, Ontario, by the CBC. Like Corner Gas on CTV, the series was a great regional production opportunity that could have invigorated the Regina industry and brought CBC to that city. The decision to produce it in Hamilton raises the question of whether CBC values its relationship with Canada's regions and what those regions have to offer.

Manitoban audiences deserve distinctly Manitoban stories. The CBC could serve as a conduit from local creators to local audiences. This grassroots approach is one way to make the CBC essential to Canadians.

In terms of the relationship with regional producers, we appeal to the CBC to improve its relationship with regional producers. MMPIA believes that an increase in the resources and authority of the regional offices of the CBC would help to develop this important relationship.

We invite the CBC to become more engaged in our community and to work with the independent production sector to build capacity and provide high-quality programming to Manitobans and beyond. We want to build a long-term relationship.

We find that the local office of the CBC is given neither a clear mandate to develop programming nor the financial support or resources to accomplish it. At present producers wishing to work with the CBC must present themselves in Toronto; the $1,000 cup of coffee is very much a reality for Manitoban producers.

The CBC's track record of working with Manitoba producers over the past ten years shows that the total CBC investment in Manitoban productions has fallen behind four other broadcasters--in order, CanWest Global, CTV, Corus, and Alliance Atlantis.

New technology and sophisticated regional production centres like Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Halifax confirm that centralization is not required for quality production. Manitoba also offers financial incentives in the form of a very attractive provincial tax credit.

The CTV western development office located here in Winnipeg is a good model. It was originally part of a modest benefits package, but the office and the development funds that have come with it have become a lifeline between our community and CTV. The results have been Manitoba-produced programming that speaks to Manitobans, like the Manitoba Moments stream, and larger-scale productions from Manitoban producers that air nationally. There has also been a stepping-stone effect for many young producers and directors, as CTV invested in them for smaller local productions and eventually gave them opportunities on national projects. Trust was built between regional producers and CTV because of their presence in our community.

Empowering the regional office of the CBC in Winnipeg with experienced people, real authority, development funds, and a regionally dedicated programming stream would result in better collaborations with Manitoba's talented creators and producers and distinctive programming for the CBC.

In the past, the CBC made it a priority to encourage talented young Canadians. MMPIA finds that there are fewer chances for new Manitoban storytellers to work with CBC today. We encourage the CBC to renew its role in developing the diversity of Canadian talent.

On working with the CBC, members of MMPIA have raised the following issues about actually working with the CBC's various departments. The first issue is clarity. Independent producers need a clear statement of CBC's programming plan so they can know what to pitch to the CBC and how to help them fill their programming needs.

Another issue is timely decisions and payments. Small production houses, especially in the regions, need timely answers from the CBC in order to keep their projects moving and their businesses healthy.

Finally, with respect to rights issues and terms of trade, the CFTPA, the Canadian Film and Television Production Association, has called for terms of trade being negotiated between the independent producers of Canada and the CBC. We agree. The CBC/SRC should engage in fair and equitable business practices with respect to contract terms such as paying adequate licence fees, not requiring unduly long licence agreements, and equitable sharing in rights exploitation. Furthermore, the CBC/SRC should be leading a movement to find funding models for the creation of independently produced Canadian programming that will strengthen their relationship with producers and further the growth and sustainability of the independent production sector.

In terms of the national CBC, while we believe that the CBC should support regional and local programming, we also believe that as Canada's national public broadcaster it should deliver innovative, entertaining, national programming. We note that the most entertaining of any television programming is innovative, including the most commercially successful drama in the United States. “The flow and exchange of cultural expression”, which is part of the CBC mandate, is only achieved through entertainment, whatever the genre. We also believe that the CBC should offer viewers international programs that fit within its mandate, programs that will interest its audience and that cannot be found on the commercial networks.

Robert Rabinovitch said to this committee on February 15, during the review of the future of the Canadian Television Fund, “Our goal at CBC/Radio-Canada is not always to get the largest audience; it is to offer Canadians significant Canadian programs.” But CBC programmers have been forced by their financial situation to try to reach the broadest audience possible by programming generic reality shows and blockbuster American films. These genres are well covered by the commercial networks and are not unique programming. They are there to attract advertising dollars.

MMPIA believes the government should give the CBC the resources it needs to take risks. We agree with the CFTPA's recommendation that the CBC should be “subject to regular reviews of its role and mandate to ensure that it remains relevant to Canadians as the broadcasting and communications environment changes”. We believe CBC's success should be measured by impact, rather than numbers.

With respect to arts and entertainment and documentaries on the CBC, Manitoba has long been a centre of the arts, and Manitoban producers have produced many arts and variety programs for the CBC, including the international Emmy-winning Dracula: Pages from a Virgin's Diary, a collaboration between filmmaker Guy Maddin and choreographer Mark Godden and the dancers of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. We've also done Appassionata and The Tales of the Magic Flute.

The cancellation of Opening Night, the CBC's well-regarded performing arts strand, was felt in our community. MMPIA fears that arts programming, a critical link to the cultural expression of Canadians, has lost its place on the public airwaves.

Similarly, we note that there are fewer documentaries being shown on CBC. Documentaries have been, and continue to be, a mainstay of Canadian television and of the CBC. We encourage the CBC to take the lead in this area and work with independent producers to shape the documentary genre for the 21st century.

On the CBC's role, MMPIA's members worry that the CBC has been in survival mode, and its mandate has been put aside while the bills get paid. The problem is that without the mandate it's hard to justify having the public foot those bills. It is a vicious cycle. We applaud the dedicated CBC employees who have managed to keep the CBC alive over the years of cuts, but we do not think that simply surviving is the standard that is acceptable.

We request that the committee recommend stable, long-term financing for the CBC, coupled with regular reviews. We request that the CBC be allowed to become Canada's public broadcaster, providing programming that is an alternative to the mainly American shows on the commercial networks; that it be encouraged to take risks and work across the country with Canadians; and that it be judged by its fulfillment of its mandate and the role it plays in our culture and society.

We suggest that the CBC review the mandate, come up with a plan, and publish it. We will encourage all our members to read it and have the inevitable debate. But Canadians will be talking to each other about our country and our culture, and that would seem to put us on the right road.

MMPIA greatly appreciates the opportunity to provide its input to the committee during this important process. We would like to take your questions now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. Keeper.

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Ms. Todd for presenting. That was an excellent and very in-depth presentation. You touched on so many points that we've heard repeated in our review.

I'd like to talk about the local picture and what kind of impact there has been in Manitoba with CBC and its relationship to MMPIA, including independent producers.

We heard from ACTRA this morning that over the last 10 to 15 years they have gone from participating in a vibrant type of environment to feeling that there isn't an environment to participate in any more. Gone are the days of radio drama, and gone are the days of feeling that as actors they were going to get calls from any CBC production to have an opportunity to even have day jobs.

On page 4 you say, “We find that the local office of CBC is not given a clear mandate to develop programming or the financial support or resources to accomplish it.” Following that is a graph that clearly shows investment has gone down over the last ten years. Can you talk about the impact you've seen since maybe 1996 or 1997?

[Kim Todd]

I can, and I will also ask Louis to.

I moved to Winnipeg in 1993. It may interest the committee to know that I lived in Toronto for many years before that. I was a producer with Atlantis Films in Toronto, and I've lived in and had homes in Toronto and Winnipeg, so my perspective is from both places. I understand my colleagues in Toronto who don't want to hear about the regions. I also understand my colleagues in Manitoba who see the importance of regional representation.

In terms of my personal story, what first brought me to Manitoba was the fact that I was making the movie The Diviners, based on the Manitoba novel written by Margaret Laurence. Even as a Toronto producer, I knew that if I didn't make it in Manitoba, Margaret would rise up from her grave in Neepawa and smite me down. I just knew that it had to have the flavour of Manitoba, this novel. So that's how I came here. That's how I learned about Manitoba, and it was a wonderful introduction. I understood what Margaret was writing about when I came here. That was in 1993.

When I was leaving Toronto and leaving the Toronto office of CBC—I wasn't working there, but they were our broadcaster and I was the independent producer producing it—everyone at CBC said I would have a great time in Manitoba, and to say hello to so-and-so at the Manitoba office because he was great. One even told a very Torontonian story, saying that one person was such great guy and was offered a job at head office but decided to stay in Manitoba, and they called it a heroic sacrifice. There was a real camaraderie, so I had the feeling that CBC had connections.

I'm not sure I can pinpoint when it happened, but I can tell you that I produced the movie A Bear Named Winnie most recently. It was a big hit for the CBC, getting 1.4 million viewers. It clearly was a story that was nationally popular coming right out of Winnipeg, because it's a Winnipeg story. But the Toronto office did not involve the local office at all in the production of A Bear Named Winnie, except as a kind of cheering section, which was great. They helped us set up the local premiere at a theatre and they were wonderful in doing that. But in the actual production, the truth is that no one at the Winnipeg CBC office has any experience in the making of TV movies or drama, so they do not feel, to their credit, that they can judge a script, make comments on a script, tell you that you have the right writer, in their opinion, and therefore approve him. There is no one at the office.

There is someone there who is a very nice man. I'm not sure what his title is, but I think Carl Karp is in charge of independent production. Carl's experience is not with drama. The people at head office don't think of calling Carl and asking him what he thinks. In other words, they don't have any confidence in their local office. I don't want to insult anyone, because I think Carl does his job admirably. But that's not what he's been asked to do, and it's not what he's been trained to do.

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

How does MMPIA see the role of the regions growing?

[Kim Todd]

I really don't mean this to be insulting, but I'll use the example of CTV and what they've done in the region. The two never like to be compared, but because of the benefits package, CTV had to find a local person. They found that person in the form of Rob Hardy. They hired him and told him they wanted him to dig in, find the talent in Manitoba, find the ideas, get some money in there for development, and develop things for their network. Rob did. He was an enterprising man who has taught himself a lot about the business, because he was told to go and learn it.

Rob wasn't a producer and didn't have the experience beforehand, but he has done wonderful things with the office. In fact, the benefits package was recently due to expire, with that office possibly closing. There was such an outcry from local producers—not an outcry, but a showing of support—that Ivan Fecan himself started answering the e-mails, because we were saying, “This is great. This is fabulous. Look what it's done for both sides.”

So it seems to me that finding someone—one person, one office—putting them in the community, and giving them a budget and a mandate is the kind of stuff we want. This is who our audience is and what we want on our network. Go find it. It's there. It's not big, and it's not expensive.

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

If I could ask one more question, Ms. Todd, I know you produce a television series that has been successful in the American market as well as in the Canadian market. When you're talking about CTV and that type of model, of course, one of the things that is of primary importance—and you mentioned it here, and we hear it every single time we talk about the CBC—is the protection of cultural content and cultural identity. Can I ask about your experience in terms of that project and how you feel a Canadian cultural identity has been maintained in that while it has also been successful as a business?

[Kim Todd]

The project you're referring to is called Falcon Beach. It's a series that's on Global Television—no longer, by the way, otherwise I'd tell you to watch it at eight o'clock on Friday night, but it finished its run last week. It has sold in 115 territories around the world. It has a broadcaster in America on ABC Family, which is a cable broadcaster owned by Disney.

It's set in Manitoba, on the shore of Lake Winnipeg, in a fictional town called Falcon Beach. The entire world, except America, knows it's set in Manitoba. In America, we actually changed the names of the places so it's set in New Hampshire, so that they can identify with it for where they are. That's the business of it, and that was the deal we made. We obviously talked to the CTF and Telefilm about doing that, because that was changing a location for one territory.

It is a huge success. It will pay back its investors. If it continues to be produced, if Global renews it, which we'll find out this week, the money invested by CTF equity will be entirely paid back through sales—and I don't know how frequent that is, but I know it's not very frequent. It will also pay back Manitoba Film and Sound and the other equity investors. The producers will receive proceeds from those sales.

The characters are all Canadian, the situations are Canadian, and the landscape is Canadian. The rest of the world looks at it and says, “What a beautiful place”, and the people who live in Winnipeg Beach, where we shoot it, have started to look at their town differently, which is very interesting.

It is unique in that it's an idea that caught the world's imagination, because it's a bunch of young people at a beach resort town. Not every Canadian idea will. When they can, that's fabulous. I think if CBC has an idea that attracts the rest of the world, that's great. I'm not one of the people who think they shouldn't broadcast NHL hockey because it has a big audience. Canadians love NHL hockey and it's a reflection of our culture. So I'm not suggesting that the CBC should only do things that are small and insulated and Canadian, not at all.

It's a global world now. It just is. Soon enough, territories won't even be the way we sell things, because it will be put on the Internet and it will be gone. We producers are aware of that. Our stories travel, no matter what.

Our stories, well told, will go out into the world and be ambassadors for us, but also, we want the rest of the world's stories to come to us, which is why we suggest, for instance, that programming from the BBC can be shown on the CBC, that they can co-produce stories. So we're not suggesting that borders and walls be built, but a business model, yes.

American broadcasters are now calling us and saying Falcon Beach is a great model. It's also a great financial deal for them because we're covering a lot of the costs. They're used to writing a cheque and paying the entire amount for their series. So they're discovering us, and I think it's a great idea that CBC, CTV, or anyone says “Yes, we have other great stories. Here they are.” But that's a way of making money that isn't going after advertising dollars and trying to be generic. That's a way of being more specific and saying that our stories have value and we can produce them well.

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

And that's one of the arguments, that it's the very reason we would need the CBC, to have a clearer mandate in that regard.

[Kim Todd]

That's right.

The other networks, I will say—because I've worked for all of them, sold to all of them—are driven by simulcasting. I think everyone on this committee knows what that is. For instance, Falcon Beach on Global gets the time slot that's left over, that no American show is put into by the American networks. So if Fox in America decides to move a show from Thursday to Friday, Global would simulcast the show, move the show instantly and bump the Canadian show that's in the time slot.

They didn't do that to us this year; they simply gave us the time slot that no one else wanted. That's difficult for us, because the reason no one wants it is that the audience is all out on Friday night and aren't home watching TV. So in the commercial networks, just because of the economic model and not because they're bad people, a Canadian series doesn't get a fair chance. It doesn't get the chance that Prison Break gets, that comes in from America. It doesn't get simulcast because advertising dollars aren't automatically attached to it.

Only on CBC will we get that chance, but the CBC cannot hide under their desks thinking they have to make inoffensive programming that appeals to millions and millions of people. That's not what Americans do. Americans make Six Feet Under, and they make The Sopranos. The hits are the ones that take chances, and that's why we're talking about that.

In fact, when you ask the CBC, they say they want normal television, just like American but Canadian; they want middle-of-the-road television. That's the answer that producers are getting. I had to adjust my microphone to hear that. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I'm sorry; we hit a nerve.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Me either.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

This is a very interesting discussion. I'd prefer that it was without a microphone, around a bottle of wine, and I think I'd feel more comfortable being honest, but I have to assume my role as a cultural critic and be very careful.

It's this issue of regions and this issue of why we have such mediocre television, as a general rule. I'm hearing from your presentation and the presentation we heard before of two possible reasons it might actually converge. One is the issue that we're chasing after advertising dollars. We've become increasingly committed to safe television, and safe television is boring television. People don't watch boring television, so it's a dead-end run that we're on there.

The other issue, I guess, is the loss of nuance when you don't have a regional voice. I think there is a general belief--and I'm not knocking my artist friends in urban centres, because I worked in that milieu for many years--that we can do a show and that people in St. Boniface or people in Sudbury are just like us; they just don't have good coffee. So we'll just get a bunch of people and we'll put lumberjack jackets on them and then we'll set up a story and it will be nowhere, anywhere, because we don't want to have any particular landmarks or any particular references because that will limit our audience.

I've always felt that's a dead end to anything culturally. I think people are attracted to nuance. I think that the particularities of regions actually speak more to Canadians because they say it's real and not just a blank family set on a blank stage and now let's give them some funny lines and a laugh track.

Mr. Paquin had said before that it has to be non-negotiable, that in every genre there has to be a regional commitment. Is that what you would support, that for television--whether it's comedy, drama, or news--it's non-negotiable and we have to insist that CBC starts to take productions from the various regions?

[Kim Todd]

I personally have a problem with layering more bureaucracy on the decision-making process, because the minute you say that 10% has to come from somewhere, then one year maybe the good ideas aren't there in that place. I am a little worried about that.

And I don't think it's what the MMPIA membership indicated. I think what they felt was that the ideas are strong enough if they're simply allowed to surface. The policy is there in the mandate now; there are only four things mentioned in the mandate, and one of them is regions. So if the policy is that the regions are important to the country--and certainly many people outside of Toronto and Montreal watch television--and if the understanding by the people who work through the policies is that they have to make it work, then we're just making some suggestions. They may have some better suggestions about how to make it work. I think having people in the regions in their own office whose opinion they trust and whose experience is in the area is a good start.

I've never had a problem selling to CBC. I've done a series on CBC. I've done many things. I think a good idea has to sell. What you don't want is mediocre TV because “we had to do it because it was regional”.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You could have mediocre TV just because it was easier to do out of Toronto.

[Kim Todd]

Exactly. You don't want that either.

A Bear Named Winnie isn't an idea that a Torontonian was going to have. It's an idea that a Torontonian who moved to Winnipeg discovered. It's a richer landscape to go across the country. There has to be the will.

I have to ask this. My fear is--and I don't know this--that the move of Little Mosque on the Prairie to Ontario was because the corporate group at CBC didn't want to go to Regina. They felt it was too far from their own creative input. That would worry me.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I guess that's the question. In radio we saw today, when we were visiting Winnipeg CBC's content factory, that there is a production team doing radio, pitching to productions right across the country, and it's centred in Winnipeg. But it's easy to do because it's radio.

[Kim Todd]

That's right.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You're telling me that in television we don't even have people here who can vet scripts or.... I mean, it's news and that's it. So the Selkirk flood is going to be Manitoba's contribution to the national dialogue in terms of television.

If we don't have content quotas, how do we ensure that the empire decides to send some support? No matter what we recommend, it's not in their interest to move production out of Toronto. They won't do it unless there is some commitment or obligation.

[Kim Todd]

But I would ask why it's not in their interest. I would argue it is in their interest, because their mandate says regions are important, and their goal is to create the best programming possible. It's the opposite of a creative compromise. Moving outside augments and enhances their programming.

The only reason it isn't in their interest may be financial, and I don't buy that, because it's actually cheaper to produce in the regions. So I'm not sure why it isn't in their interest. I think I'm trying to work toward a model where it is in their interest, where doing their job well involves working with the regions.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Paquin.

[Louis Paquin]

I agree with most of the industry. When you move Little Mosque on the Prairie, the involvement in the regions.... If you have a good idea from Winnipeg or Regina and you bring it there.... You could bring a good idea from Toronto to here. What you have to be conscious of as the national broadcaster is you have to feed. If you have a commitment for the long term to get regional content, you have to invest in these regions to build capacity. You have to find your mix. For example, some communities may not have strong dramatic backgrounds, but there's no reason why those communities can't deliver national magazines or other types of productions to the national broadcast.

There are different jobs, and there's the big picture, but there has to be a commitment to sustain capacity in the regions, and they have to find the tools. Good ideas are good ideas, but that has nothing to do with where the production takes place. The CBC has all the options in the world to sustain production in the regions.

I know there's a big issue about quotas, but how do you sensitize the staff? How do you make it part of their business plan to establish the regions? First of all, in the regions there has to be strong staff to sell the ideas. If you put in a token person who has no mandate to really deliver content, that's a clear signal. It's in interpretation of their mandate that I feel there's too much room without expectation.