Canadian Heritage Committee on April 24th, 2007

[Paul Gaffney]

Absolutely not.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Is it the responsibility of the public broadcaster to promote a political option, in this case to push federalism at the expense of sovereignty? Is it the responsibility of a public broadcaster to take a stand in such a debate?

[Paul Gaffney]

I think the hard reality we all have to face with the public broadcaster is that the responsibility of that broadcaster, very simply put, is to reflect the reality of the nation. We know that the Broadcasting Act of 1968, for example, contained a clause that was intended to cast the CBC in the role of promulgator and booster of federalism in this country. That was subsequently changed in the 1991 act, and there was much consternation about it at the time.

I'm one of those people who feels that the change, however motivated—and I have to tell you that I strongly suspect the motivation for it—was the right thing to do. We're back to this distinction between a state broadcaster and a public broadcaster. Citizens in a free and open democracy such as ours have the right to expect of its national public broadcaster, and of any broadcaster, balance in coverage.

I'm addressing, in a certain way, the question Mr. Fast raised as well. It's difficult to do. It's immensely difficult to do, to stand above the fray, as it were, and try to be objective about it. We're all human beings. We're going to make mistakes every day of our lives trying to do that. But I think that's what the striving has to be. The minute CBC/Radio-Canada becomes an instrument of the government of the day is the day we might as well fold its tent and say goodbye to it, very simply put.

[Arthur Lewis]

I'd just like to add—I hate to keep going back to governance, but there's a governance issue here too—that the very fact that the board and the president and the chair are appointed by the government of the day does create a public perception of a broadcaster under the thumb of the government. And I think that's very important.

As a former CBC employee, I can tell you that I never felt the hot breath of the government on my back, and I never felt that I was constrained in any way. But there's a public perception that I think is very dangerous. And I think it's very important that the CBC be further isolated, be further removed from the government, through a better, more transparent appointment process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

That brings this part of our meeting today to a conclusion. We'll recess and ask our next witnesses to come forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We will bring the meeting back to order again.

We welcome our next witnesses, from Francophonie de Timmins. Pierre Bélanger, chairman of the board, please introduce the person with you, if you would, and bring your presentation forward.

[Pierre Bélanger, Chairman of the Board, Alliance de la francophonie de Timmins]

First of all, I would like to thank the committee for accepting our brief and for allowing us to make a presentation intended to further clarify our position. I am the Chairman of the Board of Directors for the Alliance de la francophonie de Timmins. Sylvain Lacroix is the Alliance's Executive Director.

Our organization serves the 19,000 francophones in Timmins and the region. Essentially, our work is to promote the development of the Francophone community of Timmins through partnership involving the health, education and social services sectors as well as the economy and cultural development.

Radio-Canada is obviously one of the organizations with which we often have to work when we want the public to know our reality, our problems and our positions on some issues. This corporation plays a key role in the development of francophone communities outside Quebec. I'm going to be quite brief on this subject because you have perhaps already read our brief and furthermore, we would like to be able to answer your questions.

Without Radio-Canada it would be almost impossible for our communities to fight assimilation, but above all to develop a Franco-Ontarian culture that is truly dynamic and to ensure that there is appropriate socio-economic development in our communities. What we really want to emphasize here is the perspective of francophone communities outside Quebec. We believe we have demonstrated that the disappearance or partial privatization of the public broadcaster would be disastrous for our communities.

The cutbacks in the 1990s have already had a real and very negative impact on our communities. On the radio side, the corporation has in fact kept up suitably. In fact, we are very well served in that regard. Sylvain will speak to that issue. However, the same thing cannot be said for television.

In the past, we had production capacity in Ontario and the studios were in Toronto. We were appropriately served in that way. Now, it is done through Ottawa, and it is obviously the needs of the francophone community of the Outaouais that has become more important. We are an epiphenomenon, both on the news coverage side as well as reports on what is happening in northern Ontario. We have become much more marginalized than should be the case, given the percentage of population that we in fact represent of the population. I will now give the floor to Sylvain.

[Sylvain Lacroix, Executive Director, Alliance de la francophonie de Timmins]

In Timmins, the broadcaster offers us four services. We have Première chaîne , CBON, which is from Sudbury. We have the SRC television which is broadcast over the public airwaves as well as by cable. We also have the Réseau de l'information, which is a cable channel, and we have Radio-Canada.ca, which is the Internet service.

The francophone services that we do not have access to are the SRC's Espace musique and ARTV. For the latter, one would have to have satellite service because it is not available to us by cable.

In our brief, we make a very important recommendation, in our opinion, concerning the lack of vision. Francophones outside Quebec are not represented in the national programming of Radio-Canada, whether we are talking about radio or television programs. Therefore, we recommend that there be a content requirement, for example the 10 o'clock news show the Téléjournal or Christine Charette's excellent program broadcast on Radio-Canada Première chaîne which deals with social issues. This is to say that for a certain number of minutes, they should deal with francophone communities outside Quebec, whether it is about culture, our achievements or our concerns. In our opinion, Radio-Canada would therefore become a much more national channel.

We have indicated in our brief that we appreciate the fact that the majority of francophones are in Quebec, but we also wish to remind you that there are a million francophones outside Quebec as well as almost six million francophiles. Radio-Canada therefore has a role to play in this regard.

We have a final message. We believe that francophone communities that are not in major centres, like Timmins, are often treated like second-class communities by the SRC, because little time is spent talking about us, our achievements and our feelings.

I thank you for having given the opportunity to an organization like the Alliance de la francophonie de Timmins to come and meet with you. We hope that we will have a fruitful exchange and that in the end, Radio-Canada will be much more faithful to its mandate and more representative of the Canadian population.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Boshcoff.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

You heard my initial question about the budget reallocations. Clearly northeastern Ontario, which is the prime area for the francophonie, would be more or less subject to the same situation that is happening in northwestern Ontario.

Are there visible signs of the reduction, the phasing out, the diminishing, on the radio side?

And what would give you your main cause for concern about privatization on the television side?

[Sylvain Lacroix]

I will answer in French because I am not really fluent in English.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm ready.

[Sylvain Lacroix]

As far as radio is concerned, the cuts were less perceptible, we still hear talk about ourselves and what we do, but it is always at the regional level and not at the national level.

As far as television is concerned, on the regional French Ontario newscast at 6 p.m.—I watched it for the last two weeks in order to be ready for my appearance here—in one hour, there are approximately two or three stories about the Franco-Ontarian community. The rest dealt with national or provincial events that do not necessarily affect the francophone community.

The cutbacks to television did hurt us very badly. I would even go so far as to say that we have almost no presence on television.

[Pierre Bélanger]

I would like to add something on that subject.

I am a career teacher. In the past, 20 years ago, when the severe cutbacks started and the cuts became even worse, the television production centre in Toronto was closed and was amalgamated with Ottawa.

Television as a medium is very important because it allows our young people to see themselves, to see their community, and you made those same comments for other regions of Canada.

Take for example a program like Génies en herbe,

which is basically the equivalent of what existed at the CBC, Reach for the Top.

Seventeen or twenty-four French high schools in Ontario participated. The entire event took place in Toronto. There was a tangible increase in the television youth audience in our communities. Everyone went to Toronto, and everyone could see that we existed. This is important, because we are scattered over a large territory. We were competing against each other. It was of a high calibre and really robust.

All of that disappeared from one day to the next, because it was reduced to four schools. When the regional centre was dismantled, it became national. Following that, there were only two schools participating. At some point in time, it simply died out. For a small community like Kapuskasing or Hearst, with populations of 10,000, 12,000 or 15,000, it was dramatic.

It reminded me somewhat of McLuhan's theory according to which we did not exist if we did not see ourselves on television. It was a shock, because afterwards, we became more isolated. From now on, we only exist when disastrous or exceptional events occur. We are talked about on the news, but in terms of our daily life, culturally speaking, we are literally disappearing from the airwaves, with the exception of radio. This does not encourage students to seek information from the television station. Adolescents want to see themselves somewhat on television. Afterwards, they might wish to listen to the newscasts.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

With this increasing marginalization—and we heard mention of the Kamloops situation, but in much of rural Canada and the small communities that are compelled by having no choice to use satellite or cable, so that you may be receiving your news from Detroit or, depending on what part of the country you're in, Seattle or Boston—what has happened in northeastern Ontario with the diminishing of even the English language television must be severely compounded on the French side.

Can that ever be addressed by having regional desks, or some other format, at CBC?

[Sylvain Lacroix]

Yes, part of the solution would be to bring back Radio-Canada's regional offices, but we also believe that there should be local programming, as well as regional offices. That is to say that air time should be set aside for local news where people from the community would have the opportunity to discuss amongst themselves. At the same time, the local office should be used to provide news to the national office.

We believe that could be part of the solution. It is important, and it should happen quickly. I remind you that every day, we are losing many francophones outside of Quebec. One of the reasons for that is that they do not see themselves reflected in their own community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning gentlemen, and thank you for speaking French at this committee meeting. It is important, because we have interpretation services and as we are francophones, we must show that we express ourselves in that language.

I did read your brief, because everything that affects francophones outside Quebec is of great interest to me. On page 4, you talk about national identity:In our opinion, the government should, through the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, impose a requirement for content targeted to communities outside Quebec [...] in order to promote the development of national identity [...] and help promote national unity.

What do those statements mean to you?

[Sylvain Lacroix]

National unity is not an issue of sovereignty, of separatism, of federalism or of autonomism. We believe that it is through talking to one another that the country will be able to understand itself. We will be able to speak to each other if we have air time within the national service of Radio-Canada.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Broadcast time for francophones? There is already air time for anglophones.

[Sylvain Lacroix]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You mainly get English television.

[Sylvain Lacroix]

No. In Timmins, we get all the French TV channels. We also have a private French radio station. We are referring specifically to the francophone section of Radio-Canada. If they were to promote our francophone artists outside Quebec, our francophone reality outside Quebec, there would be a better dialogue between us and our Québécois brothers and sisters.

We do not want to get into a constitutional debate or a discussion on the future of Quebec. Currently, there is a Crown corporation called Radio-Canada which, at the moment serves the province of Quebec and the French network to the tune of 90 or 95%. We get about 5% for regional programming. It is not even local programming, because it comes from Ottawa. There is absolutely nothing. If you have had the opportunity to listen to Christiane Charette's excellent program, you would realize that we could get her to play Franco-Ontarian music. The Franco-Ontarian artists would then sell records in Quebec, would become known and would be able to make a living from their art.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I understand, but the fact remains that the expressions "national identity" and "national unity" do not have the same meaning for you as they do for some members of this committee. You must be very careful. That is why I asked you for some clarification.

I understand your frustration. When members of the committee travel to other Canadian provinces—and I have often said this—the cable services available in hotels, for example, will be showing cartoons on the French television stations in the morning, whereas on English television there will be a general information program on what's happening in Canada.

Having said that, if you did not have Quebec television or programs produced in Quebec, you would have practically no French programs at home at all.

[Pierre Bélanger]

That is correct, we would have practically nothing.