Evidence of meeting #28 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lara Trehearne  Committee Researcher

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Chair, I think we as a committee have a responsibility for Canadian heritage and issues around arts and culture. While this is obviously focused on that area, it's also focused on the issue of poverty. That issue has been much studied in other parliamentary committees and in other venues. In some ways I worry about duplicating work that has already been done, albeit this motion is specific to artists, but I think the committee's time could be much better used in focusing on arts and cultural issues other than this one.

I'm not going to support this motion, and it's not because I don't empathize with where Ms. Mourani is coming from or her intentions with regard to the motion; it's just that the issue around poverty has been much studied. I think there are many other issues this committee could study that would be more effective in advancing the arts and cultural agenda in this country.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

I'll move to Mr. Abbott and then Mr. Malo.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

I'm wondering, Mr. Chair, if there's some way for us to have more informed discussion than we have the capacity for today.

What I'm referring to is the idea of giving some instructions, whatever they may be, to our assistants and for them to come back and give us an idea of what this would look like, what we could possibly get into, and what would be involved. Because of the very positive work that has been done within the province of Quebec by the Quebec government and because of the interest of the people within Quebec, I have a feeling there may be an understanding different from that of somebody from British Columbia as to what these words on this paper mean.

Here's the difficulty I'm having right off the bat. Mr. Chong has raised a very interesting point. Suppose a person has an income level of $12,000--just so we're talking about a number--and they're not an artist or would not classify themselves as an artist, but someone else, by whatever definition, may classify themselves as an artist. Would they be wise to find some way to get on the gravy train and make sure they are classified as an artist so that they can get whatever the advantages are? The fact is that $12,000 is $12,000. It's stuff like that that I don't understand.

For example, my wife and I happen to have very dear friends who.... The woman is a very accomplished potter and world-renowned, but without the support of her partner, she wouldn't be able to do that. How does that all fit?

I would like to understand what we're looking at before going ahead or even having this discussion we're attempting to have today. Certainly I will admit that I will not necessarily be able to make an informed decision, yes or no, on this particular question. I want to know what this looks like and what the possibilities are.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Malo is next, and then Mr. Simard.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to express my opinion on the issue brought up by Mr. Chong and Mr. Abbott, who have questions as to the purpose of this motion. It is clearly important to reflect upon poverty overall or the standard of living of Canadians in general. I believe that it is the role of Parliament to do so. Mr. Chong stated, interestingly, that the Senate is looking into that. However, it nevertheless remains that it is important for us, as members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, to ask ourselves very precise questions with regard to the living conditions of our artists. We might draw inspiration from the work done by the Senate. If there are important elements flowing from the discussions by senators, then they should be brought here in order to not repeat the work done by them. We will have to begin with the information already gathered by senators.

It is important to reflect upon the living conditions of our artists. It is perhaps in this regard that Mr. Abbott and myself have different views. What is the role of our artists? Do we throw our artists into a collective grab bag or do we consider that artists should have living conditions appropriate to their trade? Do they play a driving role, a privileged role in our society? We must view the living conditions of our artists in the context of what we want our cultural world to be, namely the spearhead for the promotion of the identity of those who are at the forefront of the various currents at play. We must ensure that these people are able to go about their work and their role with a certain level of comfort and peace of mind. We must ensure that the rules we set cannot, as Mr. Abbott was saying, be used piecemeal to circumvent this rule or that and pocket money unfairly, and that the rules and conditions are adapted to the way in which artists live. This way of life is not linear, it is cyclical, transactional and based upon contracts and national or international arrangements.

We must take into account the fact that artists are not public servants and that they do not work Monday to Friday from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. They evolve in a world that might seem foreign and strange to us, but it is their world. They face living conditions and working conditions that are very different from those that are found in a lot of other sectors. Because they play an important role with regard to our identity, it is important to take into account the fact that all of our rules must be adapted to their lifestyle. This is why I find Ms. Mourani's motion very interesting and I do hope that the Committee will concern itself with this matter when we come back in September.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Simard.

May 8th, 2008 / 3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm a little uncomfortable with proposing to give a committee I'm not a member of more work, but I would like to comment on the fact that I'm on the industry committee and we're going to be tabling a report within the next couple of days. We had the artists appear before us once, and we dealt with it basically on the economic level. It was a fascinating experience, and income averaging may be a part of our recommendations.

I think there's an opportunity for this committee to delve a little bit deeper into that. I don't think it will take ten meetings; I think you could get a lot out of three or four meetings here. I'm not sure I would limit it to artists. It would seem to me that any self-employed person who's in the cultural industry, for instance.... It seems to me that if you're limiting it to artists.... Obviously, this committee can determine that, but I do think it's an interesting thing.

In one meeting, all parties recognized what they do to improve the quality of life of Canadians and to keep young people in certain cities and all that. So I think it's a good idea, and I think this committee is well suited to do that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Miller.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Like Mr. Simard, I don't always sit on this committee, but I appreciate the opportunity to be here on behalf of Mr. Fast.

In reading this and listening to some of the comments--and Mr. Simard just echoed exactly what I was going to bring up--I'd like to point out some of the comments that Mr. Malo made, that we should be addressing any and all kinds of poverty around the country and looking at it.

This would be a question for Ms. Mourani, to her motion. Nowhere, any more than Quebec, and certainly across the country, are farmers, particularly beef farmers since 2003...not only do they make less than the poverty level that you refer to here, but they've been making zero, and a lot of them have been losing years and years of equity in their businesses. Along the lines of Mr. Malo and looking after poverty, and Mr. Simard's comments that it should entail more, is she willing to include all of that?

I say that a little bit tongue-in-cheek because there are all kinds of problems. You can have problems across the country. Some of my best friends in my riding are very good artists and what have you.

I wasn't yapping while you were talking, so if you wouldn't mind giving me the same respect....

Some of my very good friends in the riding are well-known artists, like Paul Duff and Sue Ellerton and some of them. They've done very well. They entered that by choice, and the good ones are doing very well, and they will personally tell you that.

Mr. Chairman, it sounds like the committee has a lot of good work to do. In the limited time I have seen this motion...I think the committee could spend its time a lot better and could certainly go more in-depth with other subjects.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Del Mastro.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I want to speak against this motion. We at the finance committee have had these recommendations brought forward in pre-budget consultations for the last two years in a row, and there are very significant problems with recommendations that would allow for income averaging, for example, that would allow for additional support for a given sector of society that you don't extend to others. We have a taxpayers' bill of rights in this country. Why should a given group...?

There are all kinds of problems. What is an artist? Mr. Chair, if I decide tomorrow that I want to be a rock star, there are a few things that may limit me from doing that, not the least of which is talent, but who in the world should support me in that if that's what I decide to do and I can't make a living at it? As an individual, it is at least partly my obligation to be as supportive of myself as I can be. I understand that not everyone is advantaged in the same way or as blessed as I have been, but that said, we do have a responsibility.

There are problems with creating special exemptions within society. Why? Are the contributions of an artist more significant than those of a farmer, more significant than those of a small business person? We do not allow a small business person to average out their income over four years' time, or five years time', or three years' time. I'm aware that artists have come forward and asked for that; they've asked for special funding so that they can continue to work.

People should pursue whatever they are passionate about. That said, even as we see with people like Olympic athletes, sometimes they are so passionate about their sport and they want to compete for Canada, or for their nation, but a lot of them have to work to support that passion. That is a reality. We have to accept that. We have to acknowledge it.

I agree with Mr. Miller. We would be far better suited to focus this committee on other areas. This is an area that has been delved into, looked at, torn apart. The finance department came before the finance committee and did speak to that presentation, and secondly, the Liberal members on that committee united with the Conservative members and voted to defeat it, because it is discriminatory in the tax system. That is something that everyone, as a member of Parliament, has to be concerned with when we start picking winners and losers in the tax system.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

Ms. Fry.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to begin by saying that this is the perfect committee to deal with the issue of the artist. And by artist, actually I think we mean artist writ large, the creative person, and not just the guy who paints. That is how actually people in the cultural community refer to themselves, as artists.

This is not about poverty. This is not about giving special status to artists.

If the heritage committee cannot speak to the value of the artist to our society, both socially and economically, then this committee is not doing its job. I would ask some of the members this summer to read books called The Rise of the Creative Class and The Flight of the Creative Class by Richard Florida. Look at works by Jane Jacobs. Read what the 21st century economists are saying about artists.

The 21st century is a century of innovation, creativity, and technology. They have all actually come full circle and are now part of what is going to create productivity and competitiveness.

In this society we need to look at how the work of the artist is appropriately valued. We're talking here about value for work done--not about poverty, not for giving handouts. Artists are not asking for handouts.

In countries like Ireland.... I would like to give you this example, Mr. Chair. As you well know, the greatest export of Ireland, where I lived for nine years, has always been its people. Everybody left Ireland. When Ireland decided to join or wished to join the European Common Market and the European Union, they were given the sort of equivalent of what we would fondly call transfer payments here. They had to take that and create a ten-year plan for themselves so they could pull their own weight within the community.

Therefore they spent every penny they were given on two things. Both of those things had to do with what the capital of the 21st century is, and it is human capital and creative capital. It is the creators and innovators and the people with intellectual property that they bring that are creating competitive 21st century nations.

What Ireland did was spend all of the money they were given on a ten-year plan for education, training, and skills for all of their citizens and for developing the creative capital of their country. Ireland moved from being a country everyone left to a country everyone is making a beeline to. They now have a minister of immigration.

Ireland has become one of the top five most competitive nations in the world, with four million people, and within the space of ten years.

What we're talking about here is looking at the new economies, looking at the global competitiveness of Canada, recognizing that this is the era of creativity and innovation and to value our artists and to recognize the work they do, not by giving them handouts, Mr. Chair, but by recognizing the nature of their work, the type of work they do, and by ensuring that we do not contribute to the flight of the creative class to places that value them. We will have lost our creative and innovative edge if we do so.

Countries that are at the top of the heap in the 21st century are maintaining their creative class, nurturing them, fostering them, and finding ways to value the work they do. And if I may put words in Madam Mourani's mouth, I think that is what she is talking about.

This committee has to understand that artists and culture are not just about social cohesion and about the identity of a nation. This is about being productive and competitive in a 21st century economy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Ms. Mourani.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I note that many questions have been brought up, which is all the more reason to do a study of what it is to be an artist, of the reasons why one person is favoured over another, etc. We could study the living conditions of farmers or of athletes, but we are the Heritage Committee and not that of industry or of sport. Indeed, there is no sport committee.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Just a correction; sport is part of Heritage.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I agree. We have two critics, but that is not an issue.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Okay, but sport is part of Heritage.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

We could do that. Statistics show that, as a rule, most artists live below the poverty line. Of course, we could say that it is their choice, that they have chosen professions that do not pay well, but I believe that this way of viewing artists is very stunting. We must realize that the cultural, artistic world generates a lot of money. Artists are not outcasts who contribute nothing to society. We fund festivals, yes, but these festivals bring in millions of dollars. Céline Dion brings in an awful lot of money and she also earns a lot of money. But those people who earn their living from their art are exceptions. The others have great difficulty.

I believe that studying this issue is part of our role. In a way, artists sustain our culture, our history, our identity. It is they who make our voice heard, whether they are in Quebec, in New Brunswick or in Alberta. We must respect them and ensure that they do not live in utter destitution. If we are able to help them, then why would we not do so? In order to do so, we must listen to them and try to determine what is not working, so as to be able to recommend measures to the government.

We talked about businesses. Businesses benefit from tax credits. In Quebec, writers are entitled to an exemption for copyright royalties, but why is such not the case at the federal level? I would invite you to show openness, to listen to these people talk to us about their problems and to see how we might help them.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Okay.

Mr. Del Mastro, and then we have Mr. Siksay and Mr. Abbott.

Just before we go there, I would like you to know that the chair does live in a riding that has a lot of artists, from many sides of art. Stratford, Ontario, is the home of the Stratford Shakespeare Festival, so we have those who make lots of money and those who are starting as artists--actors and people in all the areas that fit around a theatre, whether it be stagehands, light technicians, and all of those things.

We also have a lot of potters, artists, painters--and not painters like me; I painted walls, very good walls, but these people do very good pictures. We have singers, and we have musicians of all sorts in our area. So I do understand where you come from on these things.

I just want you to realize that I do come from an area where there are a lot of artists that go right across the realm.

Mr. Del Mastro, Mr. Siksay, Mr. Abbott, and then maybe we can call a vote on this.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've indicated that my position on the motion as it stands is to oppose it. I would like to move an amendment, if the members so wish, and then I could see my way to supporting this study.

What I would recommend, Chair, is, beginning after “artists and”--so at the word “issue”--we would strike the balance of that and have it now read:

That the Heritage Committee undertake a study on the living conditions of artists and table a report in the House with their findings and recommendations.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

There's been an amendment by Mr. Del Mastro:

That the Heritage Committee undertake a study on the living conditions of artists and table a report in the House with their findings and recommendations.

I will call the question on the amendment.

(Amendment agreed to)

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

We will move on the motion as amended.

Mr. Siksay.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

I haven't said a lot in this debate, because I thought our reasons for doing this were self-evident. I want to support what my colleagues who have spoken in favour of this motion have said. We need to appreciate the difficulties under which so many cultural workers struggle to make a living in Canada. We need to do all we can to support them, for all of the reasons that have been indicated.

I don't believe the finance committee is the appropriate place to do this kind of study or to make these kinds of recommendations. I think this is the appropriate committee to be looking at that.

I find it rather ironic that in this country we can regularly find the means to give huge tax cuts to big corporations, to the wealthy, to the big polluters in Canada. Yet when it comes to some of the hardest-working, lowest-income people in Canada, who contribute so much to our economy and our culture, we say that it's too complicated and we can't address it. I find this very sad.

I hope we can proceed with the study and break through some of the thinking that has dominated this place for far too long.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

I ran a small business for 40 years. When I left that business five years ago, my top painter who worked for me 12 months a year, at least 40 hours a week, and got two weeks' holidays, was making $24,000 a year. I heard the poverty line. I heard these things.

I have to speak for the people who worked for me and the others who work throughout this country for $20,000 and $24,000 a year. This was mentioned earlier.

Mr. Abbott would like the question called. It is:

That the Heritage Committee undertake a study on the living conditions of artists and issue recommendations on measures the federal government could take to improve these conditions and table a report in the House with their findings and recommendations.

All those in favour?

(Motion agreed to: yeas 8; nays 3)