Evidence of meeting #4 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programming.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I do hope you become or remain more of a Tim Hortons. I still have trouble ordering a small coffee at Starbucks because I can never remember the vocabulary.
11:50 a.m.
Executive Vice-President, English Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
That's right.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Last year when the committee went to Radio-Canada we were treated to an excellent presentation by Mr. Lafrance and his team. We saw the mission statement for Radio-Canada projected. One of the phrases in the mission statement was that Radio-Canada is an instrument of democracy.
We had this discussion last week briefly. I don't want to get into committee business on the CBC review, but there seems to be hesitation on the part of Mr. Ménard that maybe you don't use that phrase on the English side. Is that...?
11:50 a.m.
Executive Vice-President, English Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Well, to be honest with you, Sylvain actually phrases it in a way that I like very much. He talks about the responsibilities with respect to democracy and culture, and as I was mentioning earlier, what we take to be the biggest cultural challenges in English. But when you talk about news, documentaries, public affairs programming that is at its very heart designed to be able to inform the democracy, so I take it—
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Concerning that phrase, we've talked a lot about diversity of voices and linguistic make-up, but this seems to be a new idea, and I think it's very powerful. It strikes a chord, especially among young people who are concerned about issues.
11:55 a.m.
Executive Vice-President, English Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
We have not formally incorporated it, but I like it very much and that's precisely what I would like us to be able to focus on.
11:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
If I may, I use it in my speech. The term can be abused, but the way in which we see the term is very much in relation to an enlightened public. Our job is to enlighten the public, make sure they get the facts, and treat them as intelligent, thinking people who want to know more. Our job is to get them--when I say enhancing democracy, it is so that people can make informed decisions.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Absolutely.
Mr. Stursberg, in terms of the point you made about the Internet being a new platform and so on, I was listening to a talk by a journalist from the Gazette, Mike Boone. You mentioned that we're fine with newspapers, everything is okay, we read Canadian newspapers, and so on, but he was saying one of the problems with newspapers is that they're appealing to a generation that is getting older. He was saying his daughter will look at the first page and then she'll go read the paper on the Internet.
Obviously, you've probably noticed or you probably have statistics on what your market share is among young people for television. Do you have statistics regarding the market share among young people watching the CBC website? Are you noticing that they're drifting from one to the other, or are they drifting away from television and getting lost somewhere in the websphere, or whatever you want to call it?
11:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
I can try to answer from the point of view of the company.
We do collect statistics on demographics. We don't skew as old as some of the commercial networks do, but we do skew older in general. What we have learned, which is fascinating, is that young people are using iPods to download some of our most sophisticated radio programs, like Ideas and Quirks & Quarks. That is what they're downloading from us. They may be downloading new music from Bande à part, or from Radio 3, but they're also downloading new music--
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Is it a small group or is it a group that's getting larger?
11:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
It's a million downloads a month. We believe that it is going up quite significantly, and it is growing. Radio does skew 50-plus in terms of people who listen to it regularly, and there's no question there's been a significant drop-off among teenagers, as they have other sources of music. But we believe that we're beginning to capture that 18 to 35-year-old group, but through the new technologies. Let's hope that over time, they'll move with us into radio.
11:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Yes.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
In terms of the contract--and I find this an interesting idea--I think what you're getting at is that you want stable funding over a certain period, and I agree with that. You're saying that in order to have stable funding we'll find a commitment, but we won't get into micromanaging. Herein seems to lie the problem: we have a Broadcasting Act--it's fairly general but it lays out some specific responsibilities--and we're always arguing over the interpretation of the stipulations in the act. For example, we've been arguing for five or six years over whether CBC is doing more for regional programming or less. Some people say it's less; you've said we're doing our job; and others say it's more. Are we going to get into the same problem? What happens if the government decides you haven't met your contract? Do you really believe they'll cut their funding commitment? I'm a bit frustrated about the whole issue.
11:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
As the situation is right now, we have the act. We also appear before the CRTC relatively regularly, and on a five or six-year review basis, on our actual licenses. They set the conditions of licence, some of which, unfortunately--especially on the French side in the last round--were unbelievably detailed, with x number of hours of variety, y number of hours of this, etc.
But the CRTC is the first to admit that they don't control our budget, and they don't have a say in what our budget is. They can come up with anything they want, make it a condition of licence, and either we're onside or we're offside, but the fact is, they can't help finance it.
The purpose of the contract is to have a combination of stable funding so that we know what we're doing, but it is a dialogue between we who supply the service and you who represent the people of Canada, about what you want from your public broadcaster. Then comes the question of what the government is willing to pay for.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Mr. Scarpaleggia, we've gone on a little far here, again.
Ms. Mourani.
Noon
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you.
I want to come back to Radio Canada International, RCI, whose main mandate is to broadcast internationally in different languages and to provide information about Canada. It has a complementary mandate to tell immigrants about Canada.
I am told that less and less radio news is being broadcast, that production staff is being told not to make news programming, and that the CBC seems to have abolished rules 14 and 18 in its corporate policy that explicitly require Radio Canada International to produce broadcasts aimed at overseas audiences.
I went onto the RCI website and it is true that, when you click on the national and international articles, you are taken directly to the Radio-Canada site. When you click on "Migrations et Immigration", you go to articles written by people who work for Radio Canada International.
Is the mandate changing? I am not saying that it has been abolished. Does one mandate take precedence over another? If so, how can that be done without contravening the act?
How much of that famous $15 million goes directly to Radio-Canada? As I understand it, those $15 million are supposed to go directly to Radio Canada International, and not be included in the corporation's overall budget.
Noon
Executive Vice-President, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
I will talk about the mandate first and then about the money.
Radio Canada's mandate is not changing, but, like media mandates everywhere, it is evolving. Look at the large international media outlets. When, for example, Radio Canada International goes on the air in French-speaking Africa or anywhere else in the world, we are up against the major international players like the BBC, Voice of America or Radio France Internationale. They have much greater resources and are able to offer complete and well-directed news services. RCI is much smaller, so it has to set itself apart from its competition.
Still from the standpoint of the democratic and cultural values that we want to espouse, we decide that RCI must be a tool that broadcasts Canadian democratic and cultural values overseas. Do we do that in newscasts only, or do we also do it with cultural shows about Canada of a more general and social nature? This question of programming is an interesting one.
Yes, there has been an evolution. The mandate has not changed, but it does adjust: if we really want to get democratic and cultural values out there, we have other ways to do it than just by news bulletins. The news produced by CBC in English and Radio-Canada in French is generally good, and, broadly speaking, covers what is going on in Canada.
Maybe there has been a shift towards programming whose content deals more with culture and society than information, but that seems to me to be simply a process of matching RCI's personality to the present reality of international broadcasting.
Is there less programming than previously? It is certainly true that the broadcasting technology used by the major international broadcasters has changed a lot. Short wave, for example, is much less effective in some markets today than the web, or programs on FM.
Radio Canada International is a multimedia outlet today, in my opinion. If you go on the RCI site, you will find a lot of video and audio. RCI has become a production unit that is quite specialized in world migration and immigration issues. This is because Canada is an important country that must be an example to the world in those matters. I see that as a major role.
The essence of RCI's mandate has not changed.
As to the finances, RCI has about $15 million that it can call on. Whether its communications money comes from a communications team, whether Radio Canada International is written on the cheque or whether the money comes from a communications team with Radio Canada written on their cheques, honestly, it makes little difference. I think that it is more effective to use a large team of communications specialists or a large team of financial people and include RCI in our structures, as we have done for many of our operations at the corporation, especially since Robert arrived. I just see it as good old efficient management and basic common sense.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
I understand perfectly what you are saying, but I say to myself that, if the government gives you $15 million for Radio Canada International, logically, the money must go to Radio Canada International. I understand management, I understand rationality, centralization and all the rest. As you say, the cheque can be written by Radio Canada or Radio Canada International, but in order to write it, the government must give you the mandate.
Do you understand what I mean?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
We are still investing $15 million in Radio Canada International, and I feel that all our government partners are perfectly aware of the corporation's integration strategy. They know full well that Radio Canada International is part of it.
12:05 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
It is true that Radio Canada International's budget is now part of the corporation's budget.
When we did it—and I say "we" because it includes all Radio Canada International's partners—it was very clear that we wanted to manage it more intelligently, if I may say. It allowed us to cut some costs so that we could put more money into programming. We really did it with that intent.